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Universalism, Eternity, The New Testament.


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#1 ChaosTech

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 12:00 PM


Yes there is some very universal sounding scripture in the Bible. I just keep thinking, "in eternity, in eternity." What is truly possible for eternity. Now I've heard people suggest only God is eternal, but this is crap. So is creation. There is no true cessation, end, period. Also duality, is stable and change, and God is more stable then changing, existent then nonexistent, as are we!

http://campuspress.y...erose/1129-2/#2

Edited by ChaosTech, 05 August 2018 - 12:01 PM.

[i]There are no gods but God, we know him through his order, his mind, the the miracle Jesus Christ. Give up most magic, give up enlightenment and or transcendence. No one can behold God, infinite is beyond, submit and know it creates and sustains creation forever. No true limit, no true death, no true nothingness. E=MC2, and gain and sustainability are greater than loss. The universe infinitely is expanding, growing becoming better and more immortal as are we. Resist evil, for it is an excess, ultimately a lie of true death. There is hell, as the Bible says, but there is choice! Choose wisely. Human origins, cosmic life, magical creatures, heaven, hell, earth and purgatory, many religions. Fascinating indeed, but in this world, no man was like Jesus Christ, and has the worlds largest faith.[\i]

#2 Spida

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 09:42 AM

Even although "eternity" is in fact the antithesis of time. It is nonetheless a matter of convention and unavoidable to assign it an infinite amount thereof. The only thing that is truly eternal is the Absolute. Which is the neverending dance of existence and non existence, i.e. time and no time.

A wheel within a wheel, within a wheel. The Absolute would also represent the innermost and outermost boundaries.
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#3 Spida

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 10:11 AM

Also a thing need not be contiguously infinite to be eternal, i.e. its' existence may be fragmented or broken but recurring ad infinitum.

An analogy would be when we sleep. We enter a different state of existence where space and time are distorted and we lose ourselves, but reawaken to again become what we were.

Edited by Spida, 07 August 2018 - 01:44 PM.

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#4 ChaosTech

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 02:16 AM

Interesting Spida. The Bible and Christians in general view both God and his creation as eternal. In fact there are two words in Greek used in the New Testament for eternal. One is God, and the chains that bind the fallen angels till judgement day in hell, and the rest of the Bible concerning heaven, earth and hell even means a relative or dependent eternity. Now I used to think God was upholding creation, but I've come to think otherwise. Energy once created can't be destroyed and the universe is constantly expanding. Showing time as a sort of even if ever so slow betterment of reality. Life, Christ, growth, love, expansion, literally creation. So using this knowledge even medieval Christian monks realized with the doctrine of infinite growth in Christian mysticism, I think the Bible calls this reality eternal for a reason, especially heaven being so close to God. A Buddhist might argue, reality is relative, therefore will begin then eventually end, or even recycle, or be frozen in a past time of God but now no more, etc. because relative and dependent they don't fully understand, thinking it illusory. Illusory is more like nothingness, which absolutely cannot exist, therefore it's none. It seems God creates negative and positive polarities, but originally these were complementary, till as a Christian call it sin, or disobeying the order of God, messed it up. How I'm not sure, but perhaps God is both negative, and positive or something like that himself. Existent but able to act or create change. No one really knows God directly, so it's all conjecture. Perhaps he surpassed mind all together and is truly unfathomable. One of the reasons I believe in Jesus actually. Jesus, especially since his incarnation, is the gateway to God. The logos in general is an interesting concept. Order, harmony, unity, love, light, life, the word or workings of the universe. By aligning ourselves to Jesus we become restored, given life. I walked about all the world religions, cause the Bible seemed crazy to me as a kid. After a while though I realized I was rediscovering what it already said piece by piece. But you gotta believe first, then give it time. He will show you things that blow your mind truly miracles. Why I believe the pagan Magick inferior. Now there is Magick, but its natural to body or soul or nature, heavens energies itself. Or gulp, hell!
[i]There are no gods but God, we know him through his order, his mind, the the miracle Jesus Christ. Give up most magic, give up enlightenment and or transcendence. No one can behold God, infinite is beyond, submit and know it creates and sustains creation forever. No true limit, no true death, no true nothingness. E=MC2, and gain and sustainability are greater than loss. The universe infinitely is expanding, growing becoming better and more immortal as are we. Resist evil, for it is an excess, ultimately a lie of true death. There is hell, as the Bible says, but there is choice! Choose wisely. Human origins, cosmic life, magical creatures, heaven, hell, earth and purgatory, many religions. Fascinating indeed, but in this world, no man was like Jesus Christ, and has the worlds largest faith.[\i]

#5 Spida

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 09:21 AM

View PostChaosTech, on 07 August 2018 - 02:16 AM, said:

Interesting Spida. The Bible and Christians in general view both God and his creation as eternal.

According to my own definitions of eternity and as we've talked about recently. Eternity can be described as a state absent of time, or a thing without beginning or end. So anything that involves time or change can never be eternal. Since time requires a beginning, or starting point because without this there can never be any logical progression of events yielding a present and future.

If you theorize of a time construct without beginning then that means it regresses indefinitely yielding an infinite past from which nothing can ever emerge and progress forward. This scenario is irrational and the reason why is because it is a fallacy, infinite regression and linear progression are not compatible.

Also given a contemporary cosmology time begins with the beginning of the universe.

Now the reason why I said all that is because of your first sentence where you posit a view that states something that is created as also being eternal and since anything that is created must also have a beginning(its' time of creation) it can never be eternal as it defies one of the definitions(a thing without beginning or end) of eternity as well as my above reply where I attempted to provide some reasoning behind this.

So having said all that it's also true that the Bible and the Christians may define eternity differently than I do(perhaps irrationally), and I would have to disagree with that in this context.

Thanks for the reply. I'm going back to bed now.

:-)
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#6 ChaosTech

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 12:27 PM

:). Sleep well. I guess I just feel life is more then math, 1s and 0s, beginnings and ends. It's actually highly abstract. So given that and a curious logic, what if there is no real end, true zero not being there, I admit the head gets wonky, but children seem to express it well.
[i]There are no gods but God, we know him through his order, his mind, the the miracle Jesus Christ. Give up most magic, give up enlightenment and or transcendence. No one can behold God, infinite is beyond, submit and know it creates and sustains creation forever. No true limit, no true death, no true nothingness. E=MC2, and gain and sustainability are greater than loss. The universe infinitely is expanding, growing becoming better and more immortal as are we. Resist evil, for it is an excess, ultimately a lie of true death. There is hell, as the Bible says, but there is choice! Choose wisely. Human origins, cosmic life, magical creatures, heaven, hell, earth and purgatory, many religions. Fascinating indeed, but in this world, no man was like Jesus Christ, and has the worlds largest faith.[\i]

#7 Spida

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Posted 07 August 2018 - 01:41 PM

View PostChaosTech, on 07 August 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

:). Sleep well. I guess I just feel life is more then math, 1s and 0s, beginnings and ends. It's actually highly abstract. So given that and a curious logic, what if there is no real end, true zero not being there, I admit the head gets wonky, but children seem to express it well.

Thanks. I have really weird hours, but slept like a baby.

So it may appear to some(including myself) that there is a contradiction by me here in this thread so let me explain:

In Post 3: I was talking about eternity as an existence that is periodic, but eternally recurring, i.e. broken but in an abstract sense treated as a singular entity because that's what it is - an eternal existence, but interrupted.

In Post 5: I was talking about eternity in a conventional sense, i.e. infinitely contiguous without beginning or end; never ending, and with respect to time this is a fallacy.

Ergo, the only thing that is truly eternal is an idea, and that idea is of the absolute which consists of both time, and no time as previously stated. After all, this is the Eternal Dance, and everyone knows that it takes two to tango!

I know there is more to be said about this, there always is and quite often lack of elaboration renders a similar feeling as if an error has been made, but I didn't lose any sleep over it.

:-)
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#8 Spida

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 09:39 PM

Many times when I look at things I write I do realize I could have written them better, aesthetics can be a problem but let us be grateful that we are not chiseling away at color and form like some we know. The gifted ones who formulate glorious works of art, and even have time for shopping, now that is insanity. (I considered the exclamation aesthetically dissonant so chose to omit it)
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#9 thebard

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 08:21 PM

I would encourage the curious to spend some time studying the bible anew, with a KJV and a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, or a Hebrew/Greek lexicon.

Here is why. We have all heard the verse "except a man be born again...." and this verse had become a doctrine decades ago. The amazing thing is that church pastors never told their congregations the truth, because they either did not know it or had their own agendas to fill the seats (and thus their coffers).

But here is what that word "again" really means:


G509 'anothen' - "from above, from a higher place of things which come from heaven or God
from the first, from the beginning, from the very first anew, over again."

https://www.biblestu...as/anothen.html

Let that sink in. Now, read these choice passages from John 3. I will replace "again" with "from above."

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:6-7 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born from above."

And we get further confirmation in verse 13 that this is what Christ is actually referring to:

John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

There are those born of God, and there those born of the world. Those born of God have spirits that live on, while those not born of God live temporally.

Revelations 20:7-9

God is not a universalist. He did not create the offspring of Azazel and his followers.

Edited by thebard, 26 October 2018 - 08:24 PM.


#10 Mskied

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 06:28 AM

Your last post is exactly a tenant of the Golden Dawn.

I tried to follow your initial post, but it was so deeply confusing that I had to stop. It seems that you like Jesus, but not the Church, is that right? Everything else fails, at least that is what I got out of it.

It depends on your agenda, and your Desire, and how you think the world should be run. There are a number of reasons why the Gospels are incomplete: because it, like Crowley, does not address how the world IS, and changes it; it suggests how to manage the world. If Christ were the actual Son of God, as in; a one and only Son, He would have been able to define a government for the world to follow, solved the problems of the differences in culture, property ownership, resource distribution etc. He probably would have done some other things; like invent electricity. Yes, the Spirit that Christ suggests is in line with an ideal- an ideal that, for those that are concerned with Mercy, is pretty perfect. Now, you might offer that should that Spirit be adopted globally, that Man would create the government to follow it, and that is where you lost me- because that is what the Church tried to do- but you demonized them as wanting nothing but Empire. Well my friend, this world requires organization, and that means creating roles and titles, and distribution of powers and responsibilities- and it sounds like you expect things to just run themselves.

There are a myriad of other reasons why the Spirit of Christ is not the Way, and will not be the only Way, ever. One of them is that the Spirit of Individuality, and adventure is needed to explore and discover, and challenging safe Wisdom is not on His menu.

Man needs to understand Mercy, and compassion, but Man also needs to know how to avoid getting themselves into a situation where they find themselves requiring Mercy, and forcing a person to empathize with their poor condition, and THAT is what a lot of the rest of us strive for. Perfect life for all. Now focus your zeal on answers rather than objections, and you will discover that the Occult is actually far more legitimate in light of Man and God than Christ. Also, Hermetics, actual Hermeticists; understand and believe in Creator, but it sounds like you didnt dig deep enough to learn that.

#11 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 03:59 PM

View Postthebard, on 26 October 2018 - 08:21 PM, said:

There are those born of God, and there those born of the world. Those born of God have spirits that live on, while those not born of God live temporally.

Were I to construct a Pagan cult as an Initiatory Mystery School, I would require that the novice, as a condition of the first initiation, claim their status as a Creature of Earth by renouncing any claim they feel they may have on an immortal soul.
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#12 Mskied

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 06:09 PM

you do and you dont





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