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A [Less Than Common] Spirit Model


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#21 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 09:21 PM

View PostImperial Arts, on 11 June 2018 - 07:22 AM, said:

The soul or spirit is evident in the existence of the will, in the sense that we may choose or choose against something, and its relevance has more to do with moral philosophy than natural philosophy, being outside of space and time altogether.

Regardless of the evidence one uses to infer soul or spirit, I don't see why the idea [that] it is outside of space and time is better than that idea that it's but one more part of space and time. You must have some reasoning about that. I'm interested in your ideas about that.

View PostImperial Arts, on 11 June 2018 - 07:22 AM, said:

I don't view doctrines of the spirit as having relevance to doctrines of how things actually are, or any kind of universal hierarchy. I think that is an important point. When we talk something like brains or chemicals, there are facts and things that are not given much range of speculation; but in matters of the spirit there is no fixed rule.

If the doctrine is primarily aimed at how the world works, then it's relevant, right? Why let an unknowable reality interfere with functionality? Like, if developing a Cargo Cult leads to a better standard of living for a few islanders, even [if] it's fleeting, better for awhile is better than never better, isn't it?

Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 11 June 2018 - 11:48 PM.

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#22 Imperial Arts

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 04:05 AM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 11 June 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

Regardless of the evidence one uses to infer soul or spirit, I don't see why the idea [that] it is outside of space and time is better than that idea that it's but one more part of space and time. You must have some reasoning about that. I'm interested in your ideas about that.

I think my reasoning began at the reverse end and worked backward. Experiments in evocation turned me on to the concept of "absolute" thought as opposed to biological thought. I took an interest in Islamic demonology which insists that the spirits are moral but not mortal, that they have the independent will to accept or reject their conscience, and in which the spirits expect to be judged as in the Christian version. Strains of Hinduism teach that the spirit persists over many lifetimes, and so on. All of these teachings support the idea of a spirit which is independent of the body and subject to some other means of measure, and that there are other individuals besides ourselves who are participants in the same communion of souls.

The more closely the brain and its structures are examined, the more evident it has become that "the mind," awareness and memory, has a biological origin. You might want to strike someone, pop 'em one right on the jaw; but you restrain yourself. You might go ahead and bap him. The adrenaline, the field directives sent to the fist, all of that is just brain sparks. Somewhere there is a directive power and over that agency within the brain there is a director who is "you." As with most leaders it is often misinformed or poorly informed, and its reach exceeds its grasp even in the body which is its vehicle. If you want to suggest that the executive power of that director in his little throne within the mind is just a result of the brain chemicals doing their thing... then are we not just high power chemical robots? I do not believe it is so, and the alternative solution is to consider that the mover within is actually exterior to the entire system, as is suggested in the lore referenced in passing above.


View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 11 June 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

If the doctrine is primarily aimed at how the world works, then it's relevant, right? Why let an unknowable reality interfere with functionality? Like, if developing a Cargo Cult leads to a better standard of living for a few islanders, even [if] it's fleeting, better for awhile is better than never better, isn't it?

I read to adults, sort of a hobby, but lots of people can't read. Those same people ask questions about life and everything and they want to know whether your soul will be lost if you die in outer space, or whether you will not resurrect if you are cremated and such things. Some of these thing have deep emotional impact. It's not just a matter of validating the mercy of the courts or the justice of the law, it's about something more personal.

The way people believe in spirits is usually indicative of some belief about what we can loosely call natural philosophy. The spirit has rules. It must be given a door to exit a home, or prevented entry by salt, or afflicted by the infinite variety of charms. The demons and greater deities operate in much the same way, and it is not without reason that the sages east and west have compared the whole commerce with spirits to some form of paleolithic necromancy running its course though the ages in a variety of forms.

When people have a belief that the laws applicable to spirits also apply to reality, there are problems. There are some seriously ignorant and superstitious people in this world whose whole life is a mess of spirit nonsense. The realm of spirit needs to be understood as its own thing within a very generous context, and not given reign over ideas about how anything else besides spiritual things operate.

Since this is an occult board, everyone is familiar with banishing by salt, or by smoke and cedar, or whatever. It is a physical gesture which is assumed to affect spirits, usually to repel them. Even among those who believe in such practices, there are conflicting theories as to why it does what it does, and what exactly that might be. And so I suggest that instead of anything relevant to spirit, these and similar practices affect something entirely different or else the spirits respond for a very different reason than that supposed, according to markedly different principles.
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#23 Spida

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 08:58 AM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 11 June 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

Regardless of the evidence one uses to infer soul or spirit, I don't see why the idea [that] it is outside of space and time is better than that idea that it's but one more part of space and time. You must have some reasoning about that. I'm interested in your ideas about that.

So now that Mr. Laughlin got his answer I may add something.

As Above So Below, As Within So Without...

The latter half being a reference to the World existing Within an Individual, e.g. Mind; Microcosm. As opposed to everything that is external to them - the World Without(them).

The initial Maxims apply very naturally to a Current Cosmology which would have us believe that there is a Primordial Origin that pre-dates Space and Time. As if to take the 2nd of the initial Maxims and erase the 'Without' part, i.e. the Macrocosm leaving an Existence that is entirely 'Within'. Thus we have the 'Singularity' of Theoretical Physics.

However this leaves us with the problem of how the Universe was able to enter into any anabolic process in the absence of Time where all is in a Static Eternal State, i.e. no movement or change. Which I refer to as Emergence via a "No Time" Paradox.

'Spirit' or Consciousness solves the above paradox and also makes use of the Second half of the Hermetic Axioms previously mentioned. Where there is Time, Change, or Movement 'Within' which initiates the Expansion process so that what is 'Within' becomes what is 'Without'. The Birth of the Universe - As Within, So Without ! Initiated by Spirit, or Consciousness. Which I sometimes refer to as the "Primordial Consciousness". A Zero Volume Existence(or Entity) prior to the Expansion !

Edited by Spida, 12 June 2018 - 08:59 AM.

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#24 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 10:26 PM

View PostImperial Arts, on 12 June 2018 - 04:05 AM, said:

I think my reasoning began at the reverse end and worked backward. Experiments in evocation turned me on to the concept of "absolute" thought as opposed to biological thought. I took an interest in Islamic demonology which insists that the spirits are moral but not mortal, that they have the independent will to accept or reject their conscience, and in which the spirits expect to be judged as in the Christian version. Strains of Hinduism teach that the spirit persists over many lifetimes, and so on. All of these teachings support the idea of a spirit which is independent of the body and subject to some other means of measure, and that there are other individuals besides ourselves who are participants in the same communion of souls.

The more closely the brain and its structures are examined, the more evident it has become that "the mind," awareness and memory, has a biological origin. You might want to strike someone, pop 'em one right on the jaw; but you restrain yourself. You might go ahead and bap him. The adrenaline, the field directives sent to the fist, all of that is just brain sparks. Somewhere there is a directive power and over that agency within the brain there is a director who is "you." As with most leaders it is often misinformed or poorly informed, and its reach exceeds its grasp even in the body which is its vehicle. If you want to suggest that the executive power of that director in his little throne within the mind is just a result of the brain chemicals doing their thing... then are we not just high power chemical robots? I do not believe it is so, and the alternative solution is to consider that the mover within is actually exterior to the entire system, as is suggested in the lore referenced in passing above.

For me there's no good reason to assume that the ancient sages had it right. They, arguably, had less information to work with. I suppose that makes [me] a progressive rather than a conservative. An alternative that both retains a spirit construct and is more consistent with the current book of information is that various types of physical interactions induce spirit (so we might call it an inductive model). No interactive matter, no spirit. There are relatively easy-to-grasp examples to reach for, embedded in your own ideas; they just need to be twisted around a little.

Here's a way to start thinking along my lines. While it's true enough that something like an attitude has neural substrates that support it, but "it" doesn't originate from them, they merely process it, and those processes influence various functions, but many of those aren't limited to their associated neural substrates either. Before thinking about that, however, focus in on attitude formation. It originates in some set of circumstances that an organism experiences, perhaps once but more likely over and over again. It's fair enough to say that the attitude is a reaction to the circumstances and not the circumstances themselves, but that distinction pales by the recognition that without the circumstances, there is no attitude. Given that, it's fair to say that without the circumstances, the attitude in question is nothing at all, not even a potential. The circumstances are, of course, are as complex as you please. They needn't be stereotyped. Some range of similar events that converge on an singular inference might be induce an attitude, for example (but we'll stop at that for now, because it's a mighty deep rabbit hole).

The attitude itself is ephemeral, reactive in too many ways to count, responsive to minute variations in too many variables to count. It has no substance of its own, no specific location, and its potential effects [are] unpredictable by any means we can devise; yet it can be shared by millions, can be contagious, can inspire hope or despair, loyalty or treachery... and it can be destroyed in an instant, completely, yet may come back again, in a day, a year, perhaps not for a million years, and perhaps not ever.

The non-physical qualities embedded in the above reveal the nature of spirit.

Will itself complies with the nature I just described in every way, it's induced by things happening, equally dependent on suitable physical substrates to express, and without the substrates there is no will: It's not a thing (nothing) till "it" manifests as a response to things. There's just no good reason to presume a directive power that's independent of matter because the induction model can explain the same phenomena and is considerably more parsimonious. It doesn't carry the weight of ancient wisdom, but you know, like I said, we have a larger information set than they had. Progressiveness Progressive thought in action.

View PostImperial Arts, on 12 June 2018 - 04:05 AM, said:

The realm of spirit needs to be understood as its own thing within a very generous context, and not given reign over ideas about how anything else besides spiritual things operate.

If you're right about that, for me, the right thing to do would be to dismiss it as useless.

Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 14 June 2018 - 01:58 PM.

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#25 Spida

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 05:36 AM

It appears as though the Spirit Model is being attacked from both ends of the Spectrum now.

Apparently Mr. Laughlin's natural tendency of discourse is to analyze the 'Result' of Universal Processes. Where density(or evolution) is at its' apex, the complexity of the Mundane, the 'Below' as opposed to the 'Above' - the realm of Logic, and Reason !

Whereas I quite often begin with the Origins and progress forward. Although both are equally acceptable areas of inquiry; to exclusively scrutinize after the fact, is but only half of the Overall Picture. One problem here though is that once one has regressed enough in apprehension of the Primordial, it almost becomes more of a matter of opinion, or Personal Belief. Granted Contemporary Science, i.e. the Theoretical does provide some ground to stand on, although for the most part it is ignored being not quite as robust and familiar as the contextual Biosphere of Emergence(Home), with all its' insane tapestries.

We have a mutual relationship here with Matter and Spirit where the depth and complexity of the Personality is directly proportionate to that of the Physical Vessel, afterall is it not true that Individuals appear to behave and act in a way that matches the characteristics, dimensions, and appearance of their Physical Body, e.g. the way they look ? As if the two aspects merge to become a single unit, or just naturally develop that way. Perhaps even more precisely the Spirit conforms to the Physical, since of course the Physical does contain the observable/interactive attributes which have reasonable priority over the intangible.

Sort of analogous to a Computer, where the Brain(CPU) and all its' Hardware are useless without the animating force of Electricity. All the intricacy resides with the Physicality of the Unit, but is otherwise 'Dead' without the Life Giving Force of the Electron !

Edited by Spida, 14 June 2018 - 05:42 AM.

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#26 Spida

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 12:54 PM

There is another less common proposition worth pointing out here as well, and that is if the Physical and the Spiritual Elements, or more precisely the intangible aspect that emerges alongside the Physical, i.e. the individual Soul Element, are both "ephemeral" then what are the implications of this ?

Most would limit their thinking to within a Linear Time Construct. Which is to say that if the Soul is NOT Durable would have most believe that the End of the Physical, and the Soul would in effect BE the end of Everything Forever ! This is a very limited Scope however.

One seriously needs to look at the facts here. Which for one, is that YOU ARE HERE NOW ! So ultimately there is a process leading up to this Emergence of Individuality. Can One Emerge from the Darkness ? Well, One has, but the 25,000 Dollar question is that when one returns to this Void of Nothingness, i.e. Death; the realm of the Non Existent can they Re-Emerge from this State ? Granted that what they were is gone, but was that not also true prior to this particular Emergence as well ?

Now I will go off on a tangent with Jewish Mysticism and the Guf, or Treasury of Souls. Which would have us believe that the Number of Souls is Finite. So of course given this is true, and that the Tree of Life/Souls is part of a recurring Creative process, something akin to the Big Bang and the Big Crunch for lack of a better example at the moment, ergo rendering an Infinite Number of Universes, or Trees of Life being continually, and successively enumerated that given an Absolute Nature to this that Individual Souls would be the SAME for every Universe, or Tree and we will forever be Emerging from the Darkness.

So we have a Non Linear Context here as opposed to a Finite Linear one, and I don't know about anyone else, but I have a really difficult time imagining ANYTHING happening only one time as part of the Infinite, and Eternal, that is of course if you may indulge in wrapping your Thoughts around these things eventually perhaps, anyone of course.

So in summary, the end of ALL that an Individual is, is not necessarily the End of Them Ultimately ! They may be left with nothing in the End, and STILL may return, just as they did THIS Time ! In the absence of a Durable Soul, of course !
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#27 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 02:34 PM

View PostSpida, on 14 June 2018 - 05:36 AM, said:


Apparently Mr. Laughlin's natural tendency of discourse is to analyze the 'Result' of Universal Processes. Where density(or evolution) is at its' apex, the complexity of the Mundane, the 'Below' as opposed to the 'Above' - the realm of Logic, and Reason !

You're mistaken in nearly every assumption I can infer from the above. I'm pragmatic, utilitarian. You do have one bit right: I'm working with observable processes, for the reason articulated below.

View PostSpida, on 14 June 2018 - 05:36 AM, said:

Whereas I quite often begin with the Origins and progress forward.

What, prey tell, do you know of Origins, and how do you come by that knowledge?

There's no need to answer that, I'm making the point that the above suggests you (people in general) are willing to assume they know things that they can't know. I don't do that. I find it neither necessary nor useful. For me, the best course is to derive a working model that's consistent with what I can know, and then continue to massage it with the intention of continually improving it, in service of improving my life in general. For me it's about living life, not chasing Truth with a capital T.

The downside of letting oneself believe in things they can't know is that it increases ones tolerance to inconsistencies, which can lead to a rigid cognitive inflexibility. If carried on far enough, one can become impervious to ideas and evidence that are inconsistent with cherished ideas, to which they fiercely cling. That, in a word is stagnation, the Fundamentalist's crowning achievement.
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#28 Spida

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 04:22 PM

Well, I'm not just making stuff up here. Do you have any faith in Science? And the Theoretical aspects of it? I have gone on about this without end; it is my foundation from which all other ideas 'sometimes' blossom. Of course I may at times step outside of the Box.

The reason for doing this is quite obvious to me - Knowledge. This type of knowledge is beyond everything in our experience, so may that be a reason not to pursue it? There is no definitive Black and White, no proof to speak of so let it remain unknown, unnecessary, and unuseful, and move on to something else a bit closer to Home? Maybe for some but not me !

I take great care in using Contemporary Knowledge that others have worked very hard and long to obtain. So I believe I begin with a Solid Foundation, the best that can be expected. I also work diligently and continuously in constructing various analogies between the Big and Small and I do try very hard to keep the Bullshit to a minimum amidst these transcendental realities, existential paradoxes and the like.

I think it's fascinating, Practical or not(but not so fast), so it's at least useful in satisfying my desire to know more while trying to remain reasonable about things.

I suppose some of the things I go on about may not be suitable for an Occult Forum, but I do it anyway.

:-)

Edited by Spida, 14 June 2018 - 04:25 PM.

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#29 Spida

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:00 PM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 14 June 2018 - 02:34 PM, said:

What, prey tell, do you know of Origins, and how do you come by that knowledge?

I believe I should respond to that, and I think an Example would suffice. Even as it(the Example) may be a bit worn, perhaps I can refurbish it a bit. I do have a Pending Ritual of the 1st Emanation so maybe I can at least be precise, and concise in my responses.

"What do I know of Origins" ? Okay so here is my example(one of many) and also a past epiphany. This is the most Profound realization to date, pretty much and a lot has been inferred by it.

It begins extremely soon after becoming involved in Qabalistic Mysticism. I notice that this "Primordial Point" of Qabalah reminds me quite a bit of the Singularity(The Hawking Stuff)of Theoretical Physics, and at the Present Time I can make no distinction between the two. So this is a pretty solid epiphany as far as I am concerned.

Having solid correspondences amidst two entirely different Models. I believe this to be Paramount. I honestly don't detect any BS here, and there is SO MUCH MORE that follows using this as a crucial foundational starting point.

That is the Origin. I can go beyond it; there is no need in this context, and this will suffice as one example.

Edited by Spida, 14 June 2018 - 07:00 PM.

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#30 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:25 PM

View PostSpida, on 14 June 2018 - 07:00 PM, said:


...a past epiphany. This is the most Profound realization to date, pretty much...

Epiphanies and profound realizations are nothing for reasonable people to quibble over; they're personal things. Don't feel bad that I don't care about yours, because I can't share them with you, and because that's not what this thread is about.

Now, if you want to describe the methods that seem to have fostered the personal insights and realizations that are so important to you, that's something you can do, in an appropriate thread, like one you start just for that. For this thread, I'm trying to describe my spirit model and its objective basis for others to consider. If you have comments about that model I'm discussing, I'm interested, post them. If you think the thread is about any ol' spirit model, that's not what I intended. Go forth knowing better.
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#31 Spida

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:57 PM

That sounds reasonable. At some point I will skim over everything again, and perhaps single out a pertinent Element and focus on that so as to not veer off course too much. I can do that, contemplation with a more specific focus as opposed to my Mystical Wanderings. I like that idea, may take a bit more specialized preparation and dedication but sounds interesting !

:-)

Edited by Spida, 14 June 2018 - 07:58 PM.

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#32 Imperial Arts

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 03:47 AM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 13 June 2018 - 10:26 PM, said:


If you're right about that, for me, the right thing to do would be to dismiss it as useless.

Yes, I suppose I do dismiss a lot of what is said about spirit (and spirits) as useless.

Still, I think that there is some merit in the wisdom of the sages,if for no better reason than the fact that those ideas have really stood the test of time. Upheavals of every imaginable sort have overturned civilization from end to end, but we have not been able to shake the sense of an invisible reservoir of power hidden in plain sight, nor the sense that we are unique individuals whose presence is significant in a way that transcends our physical components. True or not, those enduring concepts about life and our place in it have been a dietary staple of human belief for ages, and it might cause some serious digestive upset for those ideas to be completely changed or abandoned.

To Spida, I do not accept the validity of any of my experiences as superior to truth and reality. It's just a given that we really don't know the square root of diddly squat. A million people believing in something won't make it true, and you or me believing in something has even less effect.

What interests me most, in relation to occultism and magic, is the idea that "spirit" and spirit-related phenomena, open avenues of possibility that you cannot ordinarily produce, specifically activity which is telepathic and telekinetic. Telepathy encompasses all forms of knowledge gained via divinatory efforts of any kind whatsoever, and telekinetic effects include anything that is presumed to cause anything else to happen by whatever means beyond those apparently responsible. In short, my interest in spirit outside of the realm of morality begins and ends at demonstrable magical power.

And don't get me wrong, I think the proper place for an understanding of spirit is in the domain of morality. Even a simplistic religious belief or community will be a great assistance in physical and emotional survival. Whatever your local church or shrine or whatever teaches about spirit will get you from cradle to grave with a philosophy that can accept any level of immersion. I'm looking for more than that.
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#33 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 04:31 PM

View PostImperial Arts, on 15 June 2018 - 03:47 AM, said:

Yes, I suppose I do dismiss a lot of what is said about spirit (and spirits) as useless.

Still, I think that there is some merit in the wisdom of the sages,if for no better reason than the fact that those ideas have really stood the test of time. Upheavals of every imaginable sort have overturned civilization from end to end, but we have not been able to shake the sense of an invisible reservoir of power hidden in plain sight, nor the sense that we are unique individuals whose presence is significant in a way that transcends our physical components. True or not, those enduring concepts about life and our place in it have been a dietary staple of human belief for ages, and it might cause some serious digestive upset for those ideas to be completely changed or abandoned.

To Spida, I do not accept the validity of any of my experiences as superior to truth and reality. It's just a given that we really don't know the square root of diddly squat. A million people believing in something won't make it true, and you or me believing in something has even less effect.

What interests me most, in relation to occultism and magic, is the idea that "spirit" and spirit-related phenomena, open avenues of possibility that you cannot ordinarily produce, specifically activity which is telepathic and telekinetic. Telepathy encompasses all forms of knowledge gained via divinatory efforts of any kind whatsoever, and telekinetic effects include anything that is presumed to cause anything else to happen by whatever means beyond those apparently responsible. In short, my interest in spirit outside of the realm of morality begins and ends at demonstrable magical power.

Careful. If you stretch your reasoning capacity far enough, it will break, perhaps permanently. To illustrate...

The reason the ancient wisdom endures is because of the millions who buy into it. And, in one breath you claim spirits have nothing to [do] with the way things work in this world, and in the next you want to credit them with the mechanics of apparent miracles.

Being able to reconcile those ideas in your own mind is not a good sign in my opinion.

Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 16 June 2018 - 01:29 PM.

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#34 Spida

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 03:14 AM

View PostImperial Arts, on 15 June 2018 - 03:47 AM, said:

To Spida, I do not accept the validity of any of my experiences as superior to truth and reality. It's just a given that we really don't know the square root of diddly squat. A million people believing in something won't make it true, and you or me believing in something has even less effect.

While in general, what you are saying may be true. I believe there is a very important distinction here to be made.

There is a big difference in forming an ideology that has its roots in the Subjective, as opposed to the Objective ! Which directly corresponds to the Worlds of the Microcosm and Macrocosm, i.e. the Subjective World 'Within' as opposed to the Objective World Without !

While of course keeping in mind that nothing is perfect. One establishes a Model based off of observable phenomena, while the other does not, and may be composed entirely of Bullshit - such as Systems of Personal Belief, et cetera. Then of course you may have the Gray Areas that are a little of both, and quite honestly, that may describe my Model to a degree. I do first however, begin with the Observable, and expand into the Realm of the abstract from there. There really isn't any other way in pursuit of certain knowledge, as some ideas will never come to fruition as observable, not usually. So amidst this 'Absence' all(or the most) One can do really is to extrapolate and form analogies.

There is also the "Mystical Experience" which appears to be a Gray Area as it can be observable, but only 'Within' to the Individual, and not to be confused with Pure BS !

Now having said all that: "we really don't know the square root of diddly squat" ! Perhaps something akin to the Square Root of a Negative Number which is an "Imaginary Unit(i)". In any event, Reality, or Material Constructs aren't what they appear to be either; at least we progress forward knowing this, and this is a good place to end with a quote by Albert Einstein: Reality is an Illusion, albeit a persistent one ! And not to inadvertently undermine anything I've said, but this is simply where I am at in the Present !

P.S.
The preceding quote, for a time. When considered in the context of the "Mandela Effect" did make me wonder if in fact Reality(The Illusion) was in fact losing some of its' stability, although this phenomenon is Ninety Nine Percent BS as well, I do wonder about the remaining One Percent !

Also, no intention to go off Topic, but only done so in the context of a response.

:-)

Edited by Spida, 16 June 2018 - 03:46 AM.

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