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A [Less Than Common] Spirit Model


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#1 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 08:24 PM

I posted this thread on another site today, but I'm happy to share it here too.

***

Few people who frequent occult studies discussion forums ever specify the spirit model that governs their thinking about what spirits are, how they come about, what they can and cannot do, etc. Often. a lot of that can be inferred from how people talk about their magic practices and experiences. From such inferences, several ideas seem to be fairly common across the breadth of the occult studies community.

1. There are different species of spirits, and within each species there are unique individuals (usually).

2. Many individual spirits (e.g. those with known names) have different/specific powers.

3. Spirits with known names and specific powers can be called forth by anyone who has the wherewithal, and if successful, will be the same spirit being, no matter who is calling, what millenium it is, etc.

3. Spirits [most] have abodes where they hang out, presumably doing spirit only stuff, when people aren't interacting with them to get information or aid from them.

4. Spirit abodes are often presumed to be extraterrestrial (not in the space aliens sense), extra-dimensional, or some such. A reasonably common idea is that the material world is like one side of a coin, where other side is a spirit world; or, that the material and spirit worlds coexist in the same space, but it takes some special procedure(s) for humans to gain access/awareness to the spirit world; sometimes the idea that spirit beings are pulled into the material at the magician's beck.

5. Spirits are either eternal or, at the very least are very long lasting (i.e. many thousands of human lifetimes).

6. Other ideas that are less common... just sayin'.

While a loose collection of ideas like that doesn't constitutes a comprehensive model, it's a start though. I submit that everyone who strives for intercourse with spirits does have a working spirit model, and I'll add that trying to specify it is a useful exercise.

Okay, so It's fair to say that my own spirit model doesn't comport well with many of the common ideas that circulate here abouts. That's probably one among several reasons why some of the things I like to talk about are difficult to understand, or easily dismissed: my ideas are often considerably outside the mainstream of the occult studies community.

I don't expect anyone to agree with what follows. I just want to put it out there for interested parties to consider. I'll lay out the spirit model that guides my thinking and practices, to the best of my knowledge at present, in another post. I welcome comments, questions, and especially criticism.
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#2 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 01 June 2018 - 08:24 PM

Okay then, I'll start with a collection of basic ideas, from which my spirit model can be induced. These ideas don't have to be in this particularly order, though they aren't necessarily independent ideas, if that makes sense. So I've put them into reasonable order for me at the moment.

Spirit, in some sense, is synonymous with life.

The core principle, or evidence of spirit is interactivity. Anything and everything that has the capacity for interaction is effectively alive, and subsequently imbued with, or possessed of, spirit.

Spirit can be thought of as a unitary reservoir in which all living things share.

Spirit and matter are co-dependent phenomena. Matter without spirit is inert, lifeless, dead by any other name. And then, spirit depends on matter to express itself, so in a sense, spirit without matter is nothing at all.

Matter in proper combinations automatically induces spirit, and together matter and spirit = life, interactivity. But then, in every way that matters, spirit governs or guides how matter combines and interacts. Personally, I see no value in trying to decide which comes first or which is supreme. The co-dependence can be total. The impetus for life drives the process and that's enough to formulate a working model with practical value.

Even given the above, no pre-manifest intelligence is presumed of spirit. Spirit/Life connotes to a generic impetus with but one purpose: to perpetuate. From that perspective, spirit in the grand sense doesn't decide when and where there will be life, nor is it the cause of life. It's a necessary constituent of life as we understand it, but no more necessary than matter through which it expresses, and having no more decision making power than any given meterium (say, an atom of magnesium).

Matter is diverse while spirit is unitary. Between the two components of life, infinite combinations are possible. How spirit manifests at any place and point in time depends on the nature of the components of the specific interactive system.

That last point gives rise to the impression and potential for the perceptual experience of various unique spirits. When a specific person is understood as a system, there is reasonable basis for thinking about what the Spirit with a capital "S" that I've described above is doing in that system (the person). The typical manner of thought to go with that is the person's spirit, or a spirit as opposed to Spirit, if you will. It's important here, however, to understand that without the matter that makes up the person, no such individual spirit could exist. It comes to be what it is because of the specific interactivity of the matter that makes the person, which, by the way, is itself never static in any way. A person's body is a constant roiling conglomerate of interactive things.

The brain/nervous system came up in another thread, and the learning, personality, attitudes, beliefs, etc. that arise from it were considered. It's reasonable to understand those are all functions of a person's spirit, but no more so than as functions of the body (as a system), as neither could be what it is but for their co-dependent natures.

Any interactive system can be presumed to partake of the same dynamics as described above, so a whole society would have a spirit in the same sense as a person has a spirit. Even without an easily identifiable brain/nervous system, any organization that functions as a thing will also have memory, personality, attitudes, etc. That's true of a government, a school, a financial market, an individual business, a church, a neighborhood, etc. in the social domain. In the more environmental domains, it's true of continents, oceans, waterways, fault systems, volcanoes, mountain ranges, woods, etc. And also down to more individual things: it's true of a given tree or flower and so on. Anything that interacts as a discrete entity will have a spirit in the same way a person can be understood as having one.

Its within the capacity of human nature to experience spirit phenomena in some manner, though it's likely that some of what spirit really is may be beyond human perceptual capacity. That could explain the variation in how people describe their spirit-related experiences in different cultures and different eras.

Without getting into the nitty gritty of human perception, suffice it to say that the system is inherently inferential, rather than a direct pass through from stimulus to what the perciever experiences. In other words, the perceptual systems results in the most coherent interpretation of what's present in the environment, based on previous experience, previous interpretations, expectations formed however they were, and probably other psychological factors, like hopes, fears, etc.

A theory can be advanced from the two immediate blocks above that, if spirit phenomenon is only partially available to human perception, the demand for inference is considerably higher than it would be for the material features of things, which are 100% available, and only subject to variability based only on other material factors, like the lighting and angle of view, ambient noise, etc.

I'll leave at that for now, and again welcome comments, questions, complaints, and criticisms.
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#3 Spida

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 08:57 AM

Continuing to adhere to the Tree of Life Model, and assigning Spirit to the Top Point of the Upright Pentagram. Pointing up and away from the Terrestrial Sphere into the Deep Dark Infinite Expanse of the Cosmos. What is this Blackness, this Aether ? Is this not Spirit ? The Spirit that Moves, Creates, and Accomodates ! This Omnipresent Propagating Aether that is the Air of the Universe; the life giving Breath of Isis ! Afterall, She is the Darkest Queen appropriately assigned to the 3rd Emanation, symbolic of Expansion and Creation as reflected of the Infernal Feminine Aspect.

This Aetherial Expansion can be regressed to the Germinating Primordial Godseed, and prior to Creation of our Four Dimensional Spacetime Construct ! Where reside the Infinities of Existence !

This Primordial Godseed is a Zero Volume Existence that is a container of Elemental Infinities(for one). The Formula D = M/V which might well be invalid when applied to a Non Universal Context does yield an infinite value with respect to Matter(Earth) when applied to the Primordial Point. This is because the Universe has not yet begun to Expand, thus causing Division by Zero and rendering an Infinite Value, i.e. D(Density) is Equal to M(Mass(Greater than Zero)) Divided by V(Volume) which is Zero because as stated the Universe exists as a Zero Dimensional Point, at this Point(sic).

Also the Thermal Dynamics(Fire Element) appear to be at the upper end of the Spectrum as well which brings me to Spirit. Now if we say that Spirit or Consciousness is Infinite what does that bring to mind ? Well, for me it sure sounds a lot like a beginning of a definition for God, i.e. Infinite Consciousness. Which of course is fragmented during the Anabolic Processes of the Universe yielding individuality. From the One, comes the Many !

The infinite Quality(Spirit) of the Primordial One can be observed in the Virtual Infinite Diversity of every Person, and Creature with respect to Appearance and Personality among other things as well as just Creation, and Nature in general.

Edited by Spida, 03 June 2018 - 09:23 AM.

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#4 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 01:32 PM

View PostSpida, on 03 June 2018 - 08:57 AM, said:

Continuing to adhere to the Tree of Life Model, and assigning Spirit to the Top Point of the Upright Pentagram. Pointing up and away from the Terrestrial Sphere into the Deep Dark Infinite Expanse of the Cosmos. What is this Blackness, this Aether ? Is this not Spirit ? The Spirit that Moves, Creates, and Accomodates ! This Omnipresent Propagating Aether that is the Air of the Universe; the life giving Breath of Isis ! Afterall, She is the Darkest Queen appropriately assigned to the 3rd Emanation, symbolic of Expansion and Creation as reflected of the Infernal Feminine Aspect.

This Aetherial Expansion can be regressed to the Germinating Primordial Godseed, and prior to Creation of our Four Dimensional Spacetime Construct ! Where reside the Infinities of Existence !

This Primordial Godseed is a Zero Volume Existence that is a container of Elemental Infinities(for one). The Formula D = M/V which might well be invalid when applied to a Non Universal Context does yield an infinite value with respect to Matter(Earth) when applied to the Primordial Point. This is because the Universe has not yet begun to Expand, thus causing Division by Zero and rendering an Infinite Value, i.e. D(Density) is Equal to M(Mass(Greater than Zero)) Divided by V(Volume) which is Zero because as stated the Universe exists as a Zero Dimensional Point, at this Point(sic).

Also the Thermal Dynamics(Fire Element) appear to be at the upper end of the Spectrum as well which brings me to Spirit. Now if we say that Spirit or Consciousness is Infinite what does that bring to mind ? Well, for me it sure sounds a lot like a beginning of a definition for God, i.e. Infinite Consciousness. Which of course is fragmented during the Anabolic Processes of the Universe yielding individuality. From the One, comes the Many !

The infinite Quality(Spirit) of the Primordial One can be observed in the Virtual Infinite Diversity of every Person, and Creature with respect to Appearance and Personality among other things as well as just Creation, and Nature in general.

How, do you suppose, does any of that relate to the model I posted?
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#5 violetstar

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 05:16 PM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 01 June 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

I posted this thread on another site today, but I'm happy to share it here too.

***

Few people who frequent occult studies discussion forums ever specify the spirit model that governs their thinking about what spirits are, how they come about, what they can and cannot do, etc. Often. a lot of that can be inferred from how people talk about their magic practices and experiences. From such inferences, several ideas seem to be fairly common across the breadth of the occult studies community.

1. There are different species of spirits, and within each species there are unique individuals (usually).

2. Many individual spirits (e.g. those with known names) have different/specific powers.

3. Spirits with known names and specific powers can be called forth by anyone who has the wherewithal, and if successful, will be the same spirit being, no matter who is calling, what millenium it is, etc.

3. Spirits [most] have abodes where they hang out, presumably doing spirit only stuff, when people aren't interacting with them to get information or aid from them.

4. Spirit abodes are often presumed to be extraterrestrial (not in the space aliens sense), extra-dimensional, or some such. A reasonably common idea is that the material world is like one side of a coin, where other side is a spirit world; or, that the material and spirit worlds coexist in the same space, but it takes some special procedure(s) for humans to gain access/awareness to the spirit world; sometimes the idea that spirit beings are pulled into the material at the magician's beck.

5. Spirits are either eternal or, at the very least are very long lasting (i.e. many thousands of human lifetimes).

6. Other ideas that are less common... just sayin'.

While a loose collection of ideas like that doesn't constitutes a comprehensive model, it's a start though. I submit that everyone who strives for intercourse with spirits does have a working spirit model, and I'll add that trying to specify it is a useful exercise.

Okay, so It's fair to say that my own spirit model doesn't comport well with many of the common ideas that circulate here abouts. That's probably one among several reasons why some of the things I like to talk about are difficult to understand, or easily dismissed: my ideas are often considerably outside the mainstream of the occult studies community.

I don't expect anyone to agree with what follows. I just want to put it out there for interested parties to consider. I'll lay out the spirit model that guides my thinking and practices, to the best of my knowledge at present, in another post. I welcome comments, questions, and especially criticism.
I would in the first instance like to discuss items 3 and 4. in the context of a rapidly evolving belief within the clientele of 'Psychic Readings'.

For those unfamiliar with the modern version of the old fortune telling booths peopled by Psychics of claimed Romany descent,todays Readers on and offline form part of an industry generating millions of Dollars both in the UK,US and Australia.In the UK alone government stats confirm at least four companies hosting a choice of Psychics to contact,having an annual turnover exceeding £1M.With a 20 minute consultation costing from as little as $5 the figures indicate a significant percentage of the population holding any form of spiritual belief

Central,if not a critical,element of the belief in Psychics today is the exquisitively vague term ' Spirit '.This word is wholly ambiguous though some discernment can be obtained through examination of its perception by the clientele themselves.In both written feedback,testimonials and orally transmitted praise,the Psychic is 'accurate' because they 'work' with Spirit.They are able to 'access' Spirit,'call upon' Spirit and receive messages 'through' Spirit.The Pschic speaks only 'Truth' because they are 'in touch' with Spirit.More so,Spirit holds all the answers to relationship problems down to the finest detail and knows what your next career move will be including if you will be happy in your new work place.

Not only is Spirit a widely held popular belief,it has encroached upon religious belief and ousted previously held beliefs in Angels or other singular genre of guide or messenger.This is more than conjecture as pitted against the growth of Islam and Christianity in the UK over the last three years,Psychic Reader clientele has edged ahead and will need to be included in future histories of social beliefs.

Where exactly Spirit is located may align to individual interpretation of Heavens exact location.I exclude Hell from the equation as Spirit 'speaks only for good'.Hence the shrewd Psychic never turns over 'negative' cards in a Tarot reading,so the Devil,Hanged Man and the 3 of Swords with its heartbreak symbolism are among the cards put at the bottom of the pile.

Spirit is a kind of theosophic akashic library somewhere on the Astral that provides the information required.Spirit is called upon where once God had the monopoly.The biblical statement that Yahweh is God of the living,not of the dead' has ramifications.This then is no use to the clientele because where God fails,Spirit steps in.
Unlike prayers,Spirit holds messages from your departed loved ones that can be relayed to you by the Psychic who acts as a Necromantic go between.
Of course,the bad departed are filtered out allowing only positive communication to come through.

What entities people Spirit is unclear though the dead it appears are 'happy' and doing fine there.Without recourse to rites of evocation or any need for the paraphernalia of magic,the Psychic has powers,They are 'Gifted' at birth and know the answers you seek drawing from Spirit,that elusive ethereal Arcadia that was once called Heaven.

Edited by violetstar, 03 June 2018 - 05:25 PM.


#6 Topper

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 05:58 PM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 01 June 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

Spirit, in some sense, is synonymous with life.

The core principle, or evidence of spirit is interactivity. Anything and everything that has the capacity for interaction is effectively alive, and subsequently imbued with, or possessed of, spirit.

Spirit can be thought of as a unitary reservoir in which all living things share.

Spirit and matter are co-dependent phenomena. Matter without spirit is inert, lifeless, dead by any other name. And then, spirit depends on matter to express itself, so in a sense, spirit without matter is nothing at all.



What are your views on that applied to the beliefs mentioned by Violetstar?Can they be sustained in the minds of the clients she talks about?

Edited by Topper, 03 June 2018 - 05:59 PM.


#7 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 01:27 PM

View PostTopper, on 03 June 2018 - 05:58 PM, said:

What are your views on that applied to the beliefs mentioned by Violetstar?Can they be sustained in the minds of the clients she talks about?

I don't know what she's talking about. I don't read tarot for money. When I did, briefly, some 20-25 years ago, I didn't like it; I didn't like the way repeat costumers seem to develop something akin to addictive behavior around it, or my own willingness to feed their clearly unhealthy drives because I needed the money. The experience I had back then soured me on the idea, for good so it seems.

These days I sometimes do 3-card readings with a deck of tiny tarot cards (Universal Waite, and they really are quite tiny) in my store, where I happen to sell tarot cards and such. I only do it for free and for entertainment. I won't even take tips. If someone appreciates it enough, they can buy something from the store. If they don't find anything they would have bought anyway, they're welcome to the free entertainment. In that context, however, the idea of spirit/spirits hasn't come up, so yeah, I don't know what she's talking about.
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#8 Topper

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 03:35 PM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 04 June 2018 - 01:27 PM, said:

I don't know what she's talking about. I don't read tarot for money. When I did, briefly, some 20-25 years ago, I didn't like it; I didn't like the way repeat costumers seem to develop something akin to addictive behavior around it, or my own willingness to feed their clearly unhealthy drives because I needed the money. The experience I had back then soured me on the idea, for good so it seems.

These days I sometimes do 3-card readings with a deck of tiny tarot cards (Universal Waite, and they really are quite tiny) in my store, where I happen to sell tarot cards and such. I only do it for free and for entertainment. I won't even take tips. If someone appreciates it enough, they can buy something from the store. If they don't find anything they would have bought anyway, they're welcome to the free entertainment. In that context, however, the idea of spirit/spirits hasn't come up, so yeah, I don't know what she's talking about.
Oh come on.What she used was a real life analogy of the idea of Spirit as an abode as per your post.Thats pefectly clear to me.Nothing to do with actual Tarot Readings themselves.It was a real life example of how people see the abode as you asked.
3. Spirits [most] have abodes where they hang out, presumably doing spirit only stuff, when people aren't interacting with them to get information or aid from them.

4. Spirit abodes are often presumed to be extraterrestrial (not in the space aliens sense), extra-dimensional, or some such. A reasonably common idea is that the material world is like one side of a coin, where other side is a spirit world; or, that the material and spirit worlds coexist in the same space


This is why I asked if you thought what a large group of people deemed that abode to be or offer to address your own overview.

#9 Sheperdess

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 05:18 PM

Something not right here.3 replies but all are not understood to relate to the topic?? If I reply I may not also be understood!

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#10 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 05:23 PM

View PostTopper, on 04 June 2018 - 03:35 PM, said:

Oh come on.What she used was a real life analogy of the idea of Spirit as an abode as per your post.Thats pefectly clear to me.Nothing to do with actual Tarot Readings themselves.It was a real life example of how people see the abode as you asked.

I make an effort to take what people on the internet say at face value, in keeping with my efforts to say what I mean.

The first post was a list of common ideas about "spirits" and "the spirit world" that I posted to juxtapose to the spirit model this thread is about. I get that you want to talk about these two points here, but I don't know understand what specific question you want me to address:

3. Spirits [most] have abodes where they hang out, presumably doing spirit only stuff, when people aren't interacting with them to get information or aid from them.

4. Spirit abodes are often presumed to be extraterrestrial (not in the space aliens sense), extra-dimensional, or some such. A reasonably common idea is that the material world is like one side of a coin, where other side is a spirit world; or, that the material and spirit worlds coexist in the same space


Without knowing what you're specifically curious about, I'll offer some of that juxtaposition I mentioned.

Item 3 is inconsistent with my working model. For me, what we perceive as individual spirits aren't independent of the perceiver. The perceptual experience is, let's say, a best approximation the human perceptual system can manage of the non-physical components of interactions that define/describe the world in which we live. What it's a best approximation of is a practical unknowable, in my manner of thought, which is why a model is necessary to begin with. Such a model isn't intended to be a presumed description of the truth of that matter; it's a working construct for the purpose of forming useful practices and interpreting experience in a meaningful way.

With that in mind, particularly the bit where I'm not trying to describe the truth of the matter, the model I'm discussing holds that spirit depends on matter to express itself, and the individual spirits we can experience by hook or crook are emergent phenomena of the relevant interactions that bring them about. Stated another way, a given spirit experienced as a discrete being is an extemporaneous thing that comes into existence during specific interactions in the world in which we live; and that thing, whatever it really is, can be perceived as a discrete being. If the specific interactions that made that happen aren't taking place, there is no it to begin with.

As an anticipatory response... from one point of view someone might say the potential for that interaction is the spirit and that it exists whether the interaction is talking place or not. That too is inconsistent with the model I'm discussing. The model holds that spirit is a necessary component of any interaction (without spirit matter is effectively dead), but without a perciever trying to or accidentally experiencing spirit as it manifests through that interaction, it doesn't manifest as a discrete being. I posit that we need the as a discrete being thing to make sense of what we can perceive of spirit.

The above explanation should take care of item 4 as well. The idea that spirit beings hang around somewhere, doing spirit stuff when not communing with humans is inconsistent with the model.

If you or anyone else has a more specific follow up, please post it. I'll continue to discuss it as long as there's interest, and probably even longer.
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#11 Topper

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 07:00 PM

View PostSheperdess, on 04 June 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

Something not right here.3 replies but all are not understood to relate to the topic?? If I reply I may not also be understood!
That it seems is highly likely. :huh:

#12 Spida

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 07:46 AM

There are quite a few entry points here with this Topic now, so the most difficult part for me in the moment was choosing one. So I can always go back and comment on the Intitial list another time.

I won't bother check all my terminology as it is the essence of the idea that is important anyway, and not the Labels.

There is an analogy that presented itself to me fairly recently with respect to this Spirit Model. I would not say it is exceptional, so I don't wish to overdo it, but worth a mention and then move on to another element.

It is the Hydra of Greek Mythology that Hercules was to slay as the Second of the Twelve Labors.

It is common for me, as it was Plotinus to look for analogies, and use extrapolation whenever possible, as a matter of fact this apparently works at a Subconscious Level now which has given me this Nine Headed(initially)Serpent.

So a brief metaphorical analysis(not literal or actual to reiterate). This Hydra can be representative of Spirit(ALL) and Soul(Individual).
This Entire Creature, or more precisely the 'Body' can represent the "Spirit Reservoir" while we have these "individual" 'Heads' that emerge as a natural part of its' Existence. Of course one head must die for another to present itself, and we can(maybe) ignore the fact that in the Myth that the departure of One Head is met with the return of Two !

So the essence of this I suppose is the Unification of Individuality. Each Head may or may not be explicitly aware that it is 'Connected' to a Larger Thing that is of course its' Origin, and when a Single Head(Individual) is lopped off and/or perishes is replaced by Two Heads, as if in a blatant display of defiance !

Perhaps also in this Analogy the Body of the Hydra could be replaced with the Earth as the initial(but not ultimate) catalyst of Emergence.

Edited by Spida, 05 June 2018 - 03:25 PM.

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#13 Imperial Arts

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 07:20 PM

https://www.nbcnews....ious-ncna772956

I might have shared this article before, but its implications are enormous, and I've tried to find a version of it close enough to "normal people" that it doesn't come across as total derp, so here is the NBC report. To summarize, it looks like any time you have a set of material interactions which are as complex as the brain, they can act like a brain. That would mean that things like the surface of the Sun and its atmosphere are enough like a brain to suggest that they might be self-aware. Whether this also applies to the sea, the troposphere, and other complex systems is not covered in the article, but there's bound to be some happy animists out there reading it.

So far, the reactions have been less than stellar, no pun intended. To the science crowd it looks like woo, and to the new agers it looks like science, and so the idea has not gained much traction. I think it gives us an excellent opportunity to reevaluate the idea of spirit as it relates to consciousness. Right now, most people probably limit souls to humans. The Bible implies that there are creatures with souls in the sea as well, maybe the cetaceans or the cephalopods. Little kids want their dogs to have souls. Here, however, we are seeing an idea emerge that expands the role of consciousness beyond biology, and that idea is bound to have an effect on interpretations of spirit.

For me personally, the overwhelming majority of what gets discussed in relation to spirit is really just a discussion on biology with some major gaps. Memories, thoughts, feelings, inner aspirations... all of that is just the brain. Psychic experiences, and near death experiences, are also probably rooted in some obscure but no-less-physical source, and they show us nothing of the spirit. Maybe they show us a glimpse into the mechanics of photon entanglement as a model for telepathy. I would suppose my spirit model considers it identical to the individual will, and has more to do with morality and decisions than it does with the way the world works.

I would also suggest a tentative model of spirit interaction as founded in some form of universal "cloud storage." The majority of effects gained through spirits manifest as a form of telepathy (with other humans, beings from other worlds, people long dead, etc) and suggests that the identities of spirits are working models. A bad analogy maybe, but tools like Siri and Alexa operate as identities, but represent a collective of programmers and a pool of data in which the individuality of Siri becomes suspect. It's definitely Siri, but Siri might not be as much like us as we think, once we look under the hood. I expect something like that applies to spirit interactions as well. There's something there, certainly possessing knowledge and volition beyond our own, but it might be very different from what we expect.

Edited by Imperial Arts, 05 June 2018 - 07:26 PM.

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#14 Spida

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 05:05 AM

I know I've said similar things before, but I also am a bit partial to an eccentric Spirit Model that I devised which I might refer to as the Dream Theory !

Without getting too technical, everything is basically composed of Bosons(Energy(Force Carriers)), and Fermions(Matter Particles), which are interchangeable. Perhaps the Fundamental Component here being the Waveform which in the Modern World is used for transmission and rendering(manifestation) of Data/Information e.g. Audio, and Images et cetera.

So these fundamental Waveforms as a foundational construct of Existence, analogous to the Serpent, but we won't go into that. These are an indication of Consciousness on a Microcosmic Scale, and the aforementioned on a Macrocosmic Scale.

So when it is said that the Universe is Expanding what is it exactly besides Creation of Time and Space that is occurring here ? And is all as it actually appears to be ?

I have been exposed to the Term "Expand/ed/ing Consciousness" numerous times in written works and elsewhere so I started to form a Theory here with regard to this.

So if the Primordial Point/Singularity is a manifestation of Consciousness, among other things. Is it capable of Creating Space and Time via this Process of Expansion ?

My answer would be yes, and to form an analogy, we do this most times when we Dream ! The Dreamscape is a Microcosmic Expansion(Creation) of Space, however the Time element is somewhat distorted in comparison with the Macrocosm.

These Dreamscapes are Extra Dimensions that allow movement and scenarios to unfold, and do not exist as part of the Macrocosmic Four Dimensional Spacetime, you may even say they are illusory as their existence is completely Within !

So the essence of this is consideration of whether or not this Microcosmic Process is in some ways a Reflection of the Larger Universal One ? (a rhetorical question)

Edited by Spida, 07 June 2018 - 05:13 AM.

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#15 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 02:35 PM

View PostImperial Arts, on 05 June 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

For me personally, the overwhelming majority of what gets discussed in relation to spirit is really just a discussion on biology with some major gaps. Memories, thoughts, feelings, inner aspirations... all of that is just the brain. Psychic experiences, and near death experiences, are also probably rooted in some obscure but no-less-physical source, and they show us nothing of the spirit.

The spirit model I'm trying to discuss in this thread holds that matter in any combination that allow for interaction on any level automatically induces spirit, and what spirit is in that context amounts to the non-physical components of the interactions (not the potential for interaction, mind you, the interactions themselves). To address it in the context you suggest, a human brain is necessary for there to be human thoughts, human aspirations, etc., but a thought is not made of brain tissue, it's not a material thing at all: it can't be localized, it has no mass, etc., but more importantly, the effects of thoughts aren't constrained by the specific matter within which they originated. When a thought is shared, "it" isn't transferred from one person to another like a football. Rather, the sender approximates "it" with language (in the human case), and the language initiates interactions within the system of the receiver. Then that person has thoughts of their own that were caused by exposure to the language. The process probably never instantiates an identical thought to the original, but to the point: the effort to transmit the thought has effects on the world outside of the brain that supported the original thought. Some thoughts have power enough to change the course of events on the most epic of scales, and that "it" depends on brains to originate and propagate shouldn't diminish that fact at all.

Two ideas from the more common spirit models that I think interfere with understanding how the above scenario reveals some of the nature of spirit 1) matter and spirit are completely dissociable, and 2) spirits are discrete beings with human-like temperaments, a will of their own, etc. I think you get a much more parsimonious conception of spirit if spirit depends on matter [and is extemporaneous]: for example, there's no need to speculate about where spirits go or what they do when they're not doing things we presume to know about. And then, letting go of the anthropomorphic idea that spirits are more or less like us except that they're not made of matter opens up many previously unavailable vistas for gaining new, potentially useful insights.

View PostImperial Arts, on 05 June 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

I would suppose my spirit model considers it identical to the individual will, and has more to do with morality and decisions than it does with the way the world works.

The concept of will is worth discussing in the context of spirit models. I think it's a strange thing to presume that morality and decisions don't pertain to the way the world works. To my mind, it's a domain issue. Extant morays and extemporaneous decisions won't have an impact on whether a volcano erupts today, but they will certainly figure into who goes to prison, who gets fired, who wins a contract, etc. Seriously, which of those domains of activity in our world should matter more to the practicing magician?

Most of that aside, I'm interested to know your thoughts on will, starting with your own. I presume you consider will to be the power to determine your own course, today, tomorrow, in your life, but if I'm wrong I'd like to know in what ways. And what you suppose the limits of will might be.

Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 07 June 2018 - 04:14 PM.

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#16 Imperial Arts

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 04:20 AM

When I speak of will, I mean specifically the agency of choice a person has over any given thing, at any particular moment.

This is not meant as any kind of planning or goal setting, or any kind of effort, but instead I mean "voluntary action" of some sort.

Not the itch, not the impulse to scratch, not the mechanism of scratching, not even the factors in weighing the decision, but the actual choice to scratch or not, at its point of origin, is the exercise of this will.

The language confuses things as "will" becomes too generic and has too many irrelevant connotations in occultism. I also cannot say that I really believe any of what is said by myself or anyone else in relation to spiritual teachings. I have a working concept and update it as needed.

I can write two pages of this stuff in ten minutes but I couldn't accurately tell you how to build a toaster.
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#17 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 02:52 PM

View PostImperial Arts, on 09 June 2018 - 04:20 AM, said:

Not the itch, not the impulse to scratch, not the mechanism of scratching, not even the factors in weighing the decision, but the actual choice to scratch or not, at its point of origin, is the exercise of this will.

I agree that common language tends to confuse the issues. But focusing on the origin of choice seems a meaningful start. There are some interesting studies that show a time delay between predictive evidence of a choice and conscious awareness of that choice. Other studies show that certain timing issues between an observed external event and a decision can generate the experience of having predicted the event, but the time window has to be so tight, there's a good chance that that phenomenon isn't a common part of typical human experience. Even so, the neuroscience literature on the free will concept is a good 20 years old by now, and worth exploring.

A more naturalistic approach is to examine what one can and can't do with the choices they make. For example, if someone feels shame when naked in public, no decision to not feel shame will achieve that result. That's not the end of it though. One can choose to go naked in public and feel the shame. It won't be comfortable, but one can do it. If they do it often enough, and/or under certain circumstances, over time the feelings of shame one once felt will diminish and eventually stop happening when naked among peers.

To me, that's indicative of what good magic training is all about. As a general rule, things that a person can't change by decision usually developed gradually over time though consistent experiences, which probably led to various thought and behavioral habits, and relatively automatic emotional responses too complex and subtle to consciously apprehend. While things of that nature can't be changed by a direct decision, they can be changed by a new history of experience. It is within our power to understand something about the kinds of experiences we might need, and to set up the conditions to have them. That power, to me, is most indicative of what will really is.

According to my model, while spirit is an active component in the above, it's not independent so "it" possesses no will of its own.
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#18 Spida

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Posted 10 June 2018 - 09:12 AM

In the Tree of Life the Root Manifestation of Consciousness is the "I Am" (Eheieh) Forever Becoming, i.e. Pure Being initially. The "Will" aspect as a derivative of Consciousness begins to develop at the 2nd Emanation - Chokmah(Masculine), followed by Silence in the 3rd(but not always, as with the Infernal), the Archetypal Feminine Aspect, my Passion at times !
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#19 Imperial Arts

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 07:22 AM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 09 June 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

There are some interesting studies that show a time delay between predictive evidence of a choice and conscious awareness of that choice. Other studies show that certain timing issues between an observed external event and a decision can generate the experience of having predicted the event, but the time window has to be so tight, there's a good chance that that phenomenon isn't a common part of typical human experience. Even so, the neuroscience literature on the free will concept is a good 20 years old by now, and worth exploring.

You are aware that I am wary of giving too much weight to any study, but similar studies have been conducted in regard to fundamental structures of the neurons themselves. We are material, thoroughly so, to as fine a degree as can be observed. But I do not believe that our "point of origin," the person behind the wheel so to speak, is just a result of those physical processes. Whether you're looking at the macro or micro scale, the substance of life and consciousness is material, but I believe that all intelligent beings (and perhaps the stars themselves, apparently) have an individuality which is only readily apparent in the exercise of what is called Will or spiritual agency.

I assert that in some way there is an interface between this realm of spirit, which has no tie to any part of the universe, but exists independently from all of that and is liable only to God; and the realm of matter in which we are thinking and breathing creatures. I do not have any belief that my ideas are necessarily more correct than anything else said on the subject, it is simply what I consider reasonable to my understanding.

Salvation of the soul is nothing more than its endurance beyond and outside of the entire material existence. Hell for JW's is identical to Heaven for Atheists. Presumably there are other beings who also exist outside of our normal frame of reference. Maybe some are not non-physical at all, but "smokeless fire" of some sort. More than 95% of the mass of the universe is unaccounted-for, maybe locked away in other dimensions, seen as spirit worlds to cavemen and passed along to us as demonology.

The soul or spirit is evident in the existence of the will, in the sense that we may choose or choose against something, and its relevance has more to do with moral philosophy than natural philosophy, being outside of space and time altogether. I don't view doctrines of the spirit as having relevance to doctrines of how things actually are, or any kind of universal hierarchy. I think that is an important point. When we talk something like brains or chemicals, there are facts and things that are not given much range of speculation; but in matters of the spirit there is no fixed rule.
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#20 Spida

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 06:33 PM

View PostImperial Arts, on 11 June 2018 - 07:22 AM, said:

You are aware that I am wary of giving too much weight to any study, but similar studies have been conducted in regard to fundamental structures of the neurons themselves. We are material, thoroughly so, to as fine a degree as can be observed. But I do not believe that our "point of origin," the person behind the wheel so to speak, is just a result of those physical processes. Whether you're looking at the macro or micro scale, the substance of life and consciousness is material, but I believe that all intelligent beings (and perhaps the stars themselves, apparently) have an individuality which is only readily apparent in the exercise of what is called Will or spiritual agency.

I suppose neurons are material, and oddly enough the nerve impulses which are electrical impulses - a flow of Electrons, is also material since an Electron is a Class of Fermions, i.e. Matter Particles.

But there is more to it than that. Material Constructs are composed of Atoms where at the Core is Energy(Strong Nuclear Force), a binding force which when released is catastrophic, anyway, this would be more fundamental than the Atom - a material element.

Also there is the concept of Particles being in either Waveform(energy) or Particle form which is manifestation of the waveform energy, as if to be decoded to form the Particle, possibly depending upon a Conscious Observer. An analogy would be transmission of data over the air, these are transverse energy waves(usually microwaves), also waveforms that when decoded represent data, or images such as the waveform to particle manifestation.

Then there are the Non material aspects of the Creature. Thoughts, memories, feeling, and emotions et cetera. These are real only within to the experiencer. It is these intangible aspects that are the result of the dualism between the Spiritual and the Physical.

I was going to respond to Mr. Laughlin's earlier inquiry, but on the verge of a Ritual I chose this because it was easier and quicker.

:-)
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