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Yhvh, The Demiurge, Nature, Disaster, Infanticide, And War.


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#1 ChaosTech

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 03:53 AM

The ancients knew much violence and suffering as we do today. The gnostics were so in love with the idea of the loving Christ, they couldn't swallow the Old Testament, and made God the devil.

All religions and spiritualities must deal with questions like suffering, torture, death, rape, infanticide and young children violence or death, natural disasters, religious violence and oppression, heaven, earth, hell, and how much you must admit and even can admit you don't know.

These questions have ate me up for years. I'd like to hear from you all. Please state religious influences or background and belief, what part of the world you are from, and your answers on these questions.

Please no "it's Gods will," "because the devil is real," or its "karma from past lives." Explain. Thank you.
[i]There are no gods but God, we know him through his order, his mind, the the miracle Jesus Christ. Give up most magic, give up enlightenment and or transcendence. No one can behold God, infinite is beyond, submit and know it creates and sustains creation forever. No true limit, no true death, no true nothingness. E=MC2, and gain and sustainability are greater than loss. The universe infinitely is expanding, growing becoming better and more immortal as are we. Resist evil, for it is an excess, ultimately a lie of true death. There is hell, as the Bible says, but there is choice! Choose wisely. Human origins, cosmic life, magical creatures, heaven, hell, earth and purgatory, many religions. Fascinating indeed, but in this world, no man was like Jesus Christ, and has the worlds largest faith.[\i]

#2 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 05:03 PM

 ChaosTech, on 25 March 2018 - 03:53 AM, said:

All religions and spiritualities must deal with questions like suffering, torture, death, rape, infanticide and young children violence or death, natural disasters, religious violence and oppression, heaven, earth, hell, and how much you must admit and even can admit you don't know.

These questions have ate me up for years. I'd like to hear from you all. Please state religious influences or background and belief, what part of the world you are from, and your answers on these questions.

The Pagan response is that nature, life in general on this world, is inherently competitive. Every living thing in this system has biological imperatives that must be periodically satisfied, and if not, the being that the life sustains will cease to be that being. The raw materials will be recycled, but that thing, its thoughts, memory, attitudes and all that made it the individual it was, is gone forever. Therefore, living things are possessed of motivation to behave in ways that increase the probability of satisfying their periodic biological needs.

So there's a rather obvious reason for a direct relationship between hunger and food seeking behavior, but the real motivating factor has nothing to do with fear of death. No, it's much more immediate: hunger is uncomfortable. It starts out as a mild pang but give it a day or two and it becomes real pain, give it several days and it becomes an illness that outshines any flu you may have suffered. Food relieves the discomfort, and so food seeking and eating behavior are driven by hunger. Perhaps even more telling is the relationship between the biological imperative to procreate and motivation to engage sexual behaviors. The species as a whole needs that, not any given individual. Moreover, the drive to engage in sexual behaviors, from attracting a partner to having sex itself, and everything between and after that make more sex more likely in general, is quite distinct from the desire to produce offspring. We have way more sex than we intend to procreate. While its more subtle and way more complex than hunger, the sex drive is no less insistent, and the dynamic is the same: having sex relieves the discomfort of the drive.

A most salient point about the sex drive is that it serves the generational needs of the species, not the personal survival needs of the individual. The drive system works as long as enough of the general sexual behaviors we engage results in offspring and the species perpetuates. That is, it's more of a probabilistic thing, as opposed to the certainty of personal hunger, or thirst.

I could fill volumes with various motivations and the behaviors they motivate, but they all partake of the same dynamics. Here's the one that is most germane to your query. Even more complex and way more subtle than the sex drive and sexual behaviors comes from our social nature as a species. The list of our inter-dependencies is too ponderous to imagine, and the range of drives and the behaviors they motivate is extremely broad. We can name some key relationships, like socioeconomic systems and food availability, etc., but the thing is, like sexual dynamics, proximal social drives don't absolutely have to be met at the individual level to satisfy the biological imperative. It's a probabilistic thing and as long as the needs of the species are served well enough to sustain it, the suffering of any given individual for lack of having those needs met is irrelevant.

What we think of as evil, from my Pagan perspective, is what happens when individual learning based on social drives develops behaviors that are unsuccessful at alleviating the associated discomforts. So the discomforts grow increasingly insistent, and can lead to increasingly extreme behaviors. Any number of possibilities arise from that: some aberrant behavior pattern might partially alleviate some of the discomfort, enough to perpetuate the aberrant behavior, for example. It's also possible that the discomforts just continue to grow evermore intense, and like any animal in perpetual pain, the individual's behavior can become quite dangerous to anything nearby.

The bottom line is that nature is a system that in some ways serves greater goals than the individual's personal needs. Such systems are highly complex, and the more complex a system, the more potential there is for aberration. When the system serves the greater goals, individual aberrations don't matter in the grand scheme of things. And when the aberrations become common enough to fatally disrupt the system, the result is extinction. And in the grand scheme from everything we know, extinctions are common and generally functional: they make room for new things to happen.

In these ways, Contemporary Paganism puts all of the responsibility on ourselves to do the right the things for our own continuation in relative peace and prosperity, because at the end of the day Nature really doesn't care if we live or if we die, as individuals or as a species. Furthermore, the rules aren't set forth in a poorly translated operating manual reaching us from our inevitably more ignorant past; they have to be inferred from Nature herself. We just need to pay attention to the way things work in the world in which we live.

One last thought: natural disasters, floods, earthquakes, and the likes... no such thing is evil from the Contemporary Pagan perspective. They're part and parcel of the ongoing Nature that makes life possible on this world. The lesson to take from them is that life demands perpetual change at every level. Even the skin of the Earth is constantly being recycled. That the processes might kill off some percentage of individuals of our species from time to time, even up to 100%, doesn't make those processes evil. Thinking of Nature as evil... that's sheer hubris and it profits us nothing to think that way.

Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 25 March 2018 - 05:34 PM.

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#3 ChaosTech

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 06:16 PM

Interesting. Very scientific, explains the how's, but no why's, as I find common among modern spiritualities. But yes very earthy, green, pagan. Nature is supreme.

I'm just more interested in the why's, the cognitive basises for something I admit science and pagans don't admit to. The spiritual mover of the cosmos.

But thank you for your explanation. <3
[i]There are no gods but God, we know him through his order, his mind, the the miracle Jesus Christ. Give up most magic, give up enlightenment and or transcendence. No one can behold God, infinite is beyond, submit and know it creates and sustains creation forever. No true limit, no true death, no true nothingness. E=MC2, and gain and sustainability are greater than loss. The universe infinitely is expanding, growing becoming better and more immortal as are we. Resist evil, for it is an excess, ultimately a lie of true death. There is hell, as the Bible says, but there is choice! Choose wisely. Human origins, cosmic life, magical creatures, heaven, hell, earth and purgatory, many religions. Fascinating indeed, but in this world, no man was like Jesus Christ, and has the worlds largest faith.[\i]

#4 Imperial Arts

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 06:48 PM

I'm not sure what you're really after here, but it looks like you're on the old "Why do bad things happen to good people?" loop.

According to The Book of Job, there's not much difference between saying it is God's Will and saying it's just Nature and that we sometimes get in the way. You might get a rock dropped on your head, but that doesn't mean you need to think of gravity as spiteful.

On a personal note, this has been quite a rough year health wise, and I've had a lot of opportunity to reflect on the fragility of human life. At some point I think it makes sense to come to terms with the fact that it's a "normal" thing for people to die from being sick, or in a war, or whatever other ways we think of as calamity. You have to do what you can, take what you can get, and if you or your loved ones suffer and die and you can't stop it, that's just how things go. If instead of dying they dragged around like zombies it wouldn't be less bad, it would be much worse.

And yet something gnaws at me about all that, just as it does for you and I expect for everyone else. For example, if your father dies in a gun battle in Afghanistan, that is just one of those facets of the human experience, to either fall in battle or suffer the loss of one who does. But what about people who get exposed to something like pyridostigmine bromide and come home covered in tumors that waste them away for years? The US government claims, to this day, that the millions of people who contracted cancer following the 800+ atmospheric atomic tests are just silent casualties of the Cold War. That doesn't, for me, feel as closely aligned with the natural order, but instead it feels as if some secret evil had perverted the acceptable soldier's death and turned it into an unnecessary tragedy.
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#5 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 02:19 PM

 ChaosTech, on 25 March 2018 - 06:16 PM, said:


...The spiritual mover of the cosmos.

Chance.
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#6 voidgazing

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 07:17 PM

What would it be, our world, without these things? Perhaps the answer lies in asking why the builder would do that. Or even why not- that is, from the frame of reference of such an entity, would our suffering be considered a significant detail?

One may love something, and not in spite of that but because of it, cause the something suffering.
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#7 Spida

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 11:47 PM

 R. Eugene Laughlin, on 25 March 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

gone forever.

This is part of the problem. A 'thing' 'anything' can never be gone forever. If such was the case then 'nothing' would be in existence 'Now'. Everything will always return, not only once, but an infinite number of times. I am proof of this as I sit here and type this knowing that I have not always existed, and yet, here I am ! Or better yet...Here's Johnny ! (The Shining).

I came from nothing ! And here I am ! But what is nothing? It must be something, since I am something? Or appear to be something ?
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#8 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 03:44 AM

 Spida, on 26 March 2018 - 11:47 PM, said:

This is part of the problem. A 'thing' 'anything' can never be gone forever.

You can believe you're an eternal thing if you want. That's between you and you. But as sure as everyone poops, when you die, your body will rot, and if you're lucky people who knew you will remember and miss you, because you'll be gone form their lives and you will not return to them.
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#9 Spida

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 04:37 AM

 R. Eugene Laughlin, on 27 March 2018 - 03:44 AM, said:

You can believe you're an eternal thing if you want. That's between you and you. But as sure as everyone poops, when you die, your body will rot, and if you're lucky people who knew you will remember and miss you, because you'll be gone form their lives and you will not return to them.

I don't believe it because it's what I want. There are certainly more blissful things to indulge than Eternal Recurrence I imagine, such as 'Heaven', but perhaps a desirable conclusion would be best tempered with a bit of reason, although I just believe what I do because it is what I have extrapolated and converged upon through forms of reasoning, although abstract at times.

Maybe I can try to explain briefly how I arrived at my conclusion. First of all I don't believe time can be eternal, otherwise we would have the problem of infinite regression. Time needs a beginning in order to move forward and yield a Past, Present, and Future. So in order for Time to exist this way it must have a beginning. If it has a beginning then I believe it must also have an end.

Now if something is created that has a beginning and an end, in what context does this occur? I would say it is in an Eternal Context, and that things(Universes)of a finite nature are always beginning and ending. And why would something happen only once? What caused it to happen the first time? And why would not this 'Cause' function again in the same exact way? Afterall if something happens once, then it makes sense the same conditions would occur again in the same way under similar circumstances, otherwise it would not have happened in the first place?

I understand the complexity of the Universe, but I don't see there being infinite diversity within an Eternal Construct.
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#10 Spida

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 09:35 AM

It is true though that there is a "reality of death", and all that goes with it. People die, and for all intents and purposes they are gone. If one had no other source to extrapolate from it would be very reasonable to believe that the 'state' we enter upon death is identical to that prior to birth, and since one may assume that they are not eternal that at one point they did come from 'nothing'. So in the end this is merely belief in repetition of a process that HAS already happened.

This recurring theory is not really intended to be of any comfort or use, but is just to say that in an unlimited context, if something happens once, arbitrarily or otherwise, it seems reasonable to assume that it would happen again in the same manner.

I created a Maxim for this a while back: if the Cause never ceases to exist, then neither shall its Effects. If an Initial Cause is Eternal, or recurring Eternally then it makes sense that its Effects would also be recurring as well given the time frame, and in some cases the absence of it.

One other thing to note here is that once a person dies this is very similar to a time distortion that occurs during sleep, although in this context it is complete. Time is completely removed from the equation. Time continues for the Living, but in death and the absence of Time one enters an Eternal State, and Eons will pass as the Blink of an Eye. If one did have Memory of their previous Existence, in Theory it seems as though the transition would appear instantaneous.
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#11 Mskied

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Posted 03 June 2018 - 05:18 PM

Nature is a great measure of all things. Man must interact with Nature and as they do that, Man must survive. This is where the evils come from: Man doing things that work against the nature of Man, and the nature of Man against Nature.

I could tell you what I know of an afterlife and how I know it, but Id rather just say that it is real, and that, depending on how you lived and what you chose, you will get what you thought was good.





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