11 replies to this topic

[wren]

I intuited something the other day, and wanted some outside perspectives:

"It is inherently dis-empowering, massively egotistical, and borderline harmful to outsource internal spheres of agency to external powers."

[Sandalphon]

What does all that mean?

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

As Above, So Below, As Within, So Without.

From a cognitive perspective, it's the idea that our internal landscape is shaped by the external universe. That is, we think the way we think because our cognitive processing machinery develops in and for a world that turns according to a relatively fixed nature.

[wren]

Sandalphon, on 13 January 2018 - 05:09 PM, said:

What does all that mean?

That's the simplest way I could think to phrase it. I'll try to flesh it out, and hopefully stabbing in the dark at the contours of the idea will help get the idea across.

R. Eugene Laughlin, on 13 January 2018 - 05:21 PM, said:

As Above, So Below, As Within, So Without.

From a cognitive perspective, it's the idea that our internal landscape is shaped by the external universe. That is, we think the way we think because our cognitive processing machinery develops in and for a world that turns according to a relatively fixed nature.

No, that's not exactly it. It's part of the picture, but not the whole thing.


By internal spheres of agency, I'm trying to get at the idea of faculties, of domains of human faculties as necessary constituents of personhood. I'm trying to single out the non-social ones as well, so that I am targeting solely, or at least primarily, agent-non-agent interaction. Maybe 'Personal Qualities' is a better way to put it.

In the Occult, we talk about these things through the idea of the 'occult anatomy.' We talk about the Physical, the Emotional, the Mental, and the Spiritual bodies, or we talk of the generally 2-12 "divisions of the soul."

I like physical, emotional, psychic, and mnemonic, personally. I have to qualify, though, that I think about these things more like facets of a gem than as a spectrum of light refracting through a prism.


By outsourcing [agency] to external powers I mean refusing to acknowledge and/or exercise your potential for self-directed change because you give that power to an external force or being.

When you map these faculties to cosmological divisions in a "Great Chain of Being," you subordinate those faculties to rule by the Kings of the Elements or whathaveyou.

It isn't right to say that you have anger issues because you have impure or unbalanced Fire. It can be right to say that you have Unbalanced Fire because you have anger issues, though.

It externalizes the locus of power. It reduces your capacity to function as an autonomous agent, and so inhibits thriving. It is also incredible egocentric to think the universe would care enough about you as an individual to set choirs of angels to govern your mood swings and addictions.

[Brennan]

So here is how I read it,

""[...] thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect."

yeah?

[wren]

Brennan, on 14 January 2018 - 01:53 AM, said:

So here is how I read it,

""[...] thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect."

yeah?

...Yeah. Every time I seriously consider that quote it gets more meaningful.

tl;dr: Don't do weight loss magic, don't do magic to cure depression, don't do magic to improve visualisation, don't do magic to retroactively change your past. For all the Gods' sakes don't put entities in charge of your emotional or physical well being. It won't work in the first place, and diminishes your capability to develop as a person. The whole microcosm/macrocosm thing with the spiritual keepers of the Great Chain of Being might make a Fatalistic beginner think that was a smart idea.

Edited by wren, 14 January 2018 - 03:09 AM.

[vives gladio]

I'm not grasping the "massively egotistical" portion.

If one outsources agency, there's of course the risk of being subservient to another entity's rampant ego but you effectively sidestep your own ego in the process. It isn't necessarily a good thing - that's how we get the "just following orders" mindset. If anything it even becomes easier to act contrary to moral guidelines when the decision making is in some sense offloaded.

I'm not saying this in incorrect by any means. On it's face, surrendering to an outside will seems to be the opposite of an ego based process.

[wren]

vives gladio, on 14 January 2018 - 04:31 AM, said:

I'm not grasping the "massively egotistical" portion.

If one outsources agency, there's of course the risk of being subservient to another entity's rampant ego but you effectively sidestep your own ego in the process. It isn't necessarily a good thing - that's how we get the "just following orders" mindset. If anything it even becomes easier to act contrary to moral guidelines when the decision making is in some sense offloaded.

I'm not saying this in incorrect by any means. On it's face, surrendering to an outside will seems to be the opposite of an ego based process.

Sorry, I meant egocentric, and egocentric in the sense of overestimating one's individual worth to the World. Having an internal hierarchy ruled by external beings causes an overlap in authority. On one hand, Paralda and his subordinates have metaphysical authority over your mental faculties in this world view, and on the other hand you are the spiritual being with authority over these spheres of life. The first requires the universe to care so much for the individual that it creates specific spiritual beings for the governing of every aspect of every life. The second, while also emphasizing the importance of individual autonomy, doesn't hold such an inflated view of the position of the individual in the World.

[Brennan]

wren, on 14 January 2018 - 03:09 AM, said:

The whole microcosm/macrocosm thing with the spiritual keepers of the Great Chain of Being might make a Fatalistic beginner think that was a smart idea.

I don't get this part. Any of it.

[Aurum]

Fairies dance around to make the flowers grow but I don't think the flowers are conceited about it.

Edited by Aurum, 15 January 2018 - 09:26 AM.

[Shinichi]

wren, on 13 January 2018 - 08:44 AM, said:

I intuited something the other day, and wanted some outside perspectives:

"It is inherently dis-empowering, massively egotistical, and borderline harmful to outsource internal spheres of agency to external powers."

I would not call this untrue, but I feel like it is a Truth that applies to a specific type of work and the contemplation that led to this gnosis excluded many (if not most) actual processes where agency is outsourced.

For the extreme and fatalistic religious person (and there are such extreme individuals in many religions), sure, it is harmful to their overall potential and massively dis-empowering when they completely yield their agency to their perception of divine powers and their religious leaders. Most of us have probably met that religious person or that occult practitioner who has submitted so deeply to what they believe that they get made fun of, because they just seem stupid after having yielded to so deeply to their ideology. And by stupid, I specifically mean an apparent loss of critical thinking skills. Then there are also the Alex Jones types, who are even worse.

However, to propose that all submission to external power is inherently like this is flawed. The person who completely blocks off all external forces and does everything in his own head and relies entirely on his own agency is just as extreme as the examples in the previous paragraph, but simply on the opposite pole. Even worse is the practitioner who does everything in their own head. If you only work in your head, then you aren't practicing magic. You're practicing psychology and maybe something like lucid dreaming if you're lucky.

What about everything between these two extremes? What about the addict who has already lost control of his internal spheres of agency, and needs to temporarily submit to a higher authority (be it god, a spirit, an uncrossing ritual, or just rehab) in order to break free of the shackles that have already dis-empowered him? What of the youth with ADHD who asks Paralda for help, and gains a greater clarity of mind with which he better applies his internal spheres of agency? What of the practice of Invocation in general, where internal spheres of agency of all kinds are strengthened by temporarily and regularly submitting to / invoking certain external powers? What about the Horse and Riding phenomena that occur in voodoo and similar religions, where the gods and spirits descend to literally possess someone and join the worship ritual physically, participating in the festivities and empowering everyone present with various blessings and things?

The Microcosm and Macrocosm are not wholly separate things, like oil and water. They are interconnected things, like fish and water, or birds and the sky. There are indeed extreme cases where people hurt themselves and ruin their potential by submitting completely to external powers? Most certainly. Does that mean that all work with external powers is inherently harmful? Hell no.



~:Shin:~

Edited by Shinichi, 15 January 2018 - 03:20 PM.

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

wren, on 13 January 2018 - 07:01 PM, said:

It externalizes the locus of power. It reduces your capacity to function as an autonomous agent, and so inhibits thriving. It is also incredible egocentric to think the universe would care enough about you as an individual to set choirs of angels to govern your mood swings and addictions.

The psychological construct you're discussing was dubbed Locus of Control in the 1950's. It has been treated as something like a personality factor, and figures into a once-popular model of self-concept. The description strikes me as a cartoon version of a person with an excessive external locus of control, which would be someone who constantly feels helpless and deeply victimized, by virtually every other person they know, as well as by random events, like heavy traffic, a long line at Starbucks, etc. And then your cartoon seems to have lurked around random occult discussion sites and read a few occult-oriented webpages and picked up some of the lingo.

It's hard for me to relate to a person who's actually studied and practiced magic in the Western tradition who responds to the generalized Western Esoteric organization and feels victimized by it, but then, I can't relate very well to people who beg an anthropomorphic god for aid in their personal affairs, or someone who feels very uncomfortable if they've left their lucky rabbit's foot at home, though I know there are people like that around town.