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Is The Lord A Psychopath?

God Angel of the lord evl

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#21 violetstar

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 10:10 PM

View PostSheperdess, on 30 November 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

Also God is watching the England people!


Thats crazy! It reminds me of a Muslim reference to just how big angels are: "The Messenger of Allah said,describing Jibreel: :"I saw Jibreel descending from heaven, and his great size filled the space between heaven and earth."

That seems to fit the size of those eyes in the video.

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#22 Imperial Arts

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 12:38 AM

View PostAurum, on 01 December 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

I think that passage is saying not to plant a tree dedicated to the goddess Asherah near the altar of the Lord, so I don't think it's inconsistent with that passage necessarily.

More of the off-topic but fun to ponder:

At some point the Temple became host to an idol of Astaroth. It was a life-sized donkey head cast in solid gold, and it was kept hidden by the priests. Since it could have been melted, it was kept around for sentimental rather than economic reasons, which is a big no-no in Judaism of the time just before John the Baptist. John's father worked at the temple, and he was outraged to discover a conspiracy of priests who kept not only the idol but also the pagan religion. To make things worse, he found that this was also a popular thing for the nobility. He would have spoken up about it, but since that would have seen him swiftly encounter a fatal accident, he was instead made unable to speak. This condition was finally lifted at the naming of his son, St. John, who would himself carry the torch of Elijah back into the halls of Herod. I'm sure you are aware of how well that went:

[url=https://ibb.co/eVo6kGPosted Image[/url]

Edited by Imperial Arts, 02 December 2017 - 12:54 AM.

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#23 Aurum

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 03:28 AM

That is quite interesting! Where did you read about that idol? I can't see that image you posted but I think I might know what it is.

Edited by Aurum, 03 December 2017 - 10:02 AM.


#24 Imperial Arts

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 07:39 AM

View PostAurum, on 02 December 2017 - 03:28 AM, said:



That is quite interesting! Where did you read about that idol? I can't see that image you posted but I think I might know what it is.

The tale of the Golden Ass of the Idumeans appears in Ginzburg's Jewish Encyclopedia, probably referenced to the Oxyrhyncus Papyri. I have seen other versions of the same story appearing in offbeat religious literature, but Legends of the Jews and Jewish Encyclopedia are the real secret texts of fringe Christianity.
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#25 Aurum

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 01:14 AM

I can't find much info on the Golden Ass...Although I did find articles saying that the assertion that some people of the Judaic faith did "Donkey worship" was for the purpose of being derogatory and that some Christians were also mocked for the same thing.

I'm not sure if those articles are referring to the Golden Ass, though.

Edited by Aurum, 04 December 2017 - 01:15 AM.


#26 Spida

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 10:09 AM

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Edited by Spida, 05 December 2017 - 03:30 AM.


#27 Spida

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 10:16 AM

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#28 violetstar

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 06:02 PM

View PostSpida, on 04 December 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

I remember also reading a while back that Enoch was made into the Archangel Metatron, and that would change things a bit I suppose. I believe it may mention this in the Blog post. So I would wonder who the Archangel prior to Metatron was then. Since the Divine emanations occurred prior to any replacement. This is all very abstract to me.
Indeed it is abstract to all of us.The Immanuel narrative is one the founding quotes to construct a Christophany which implies a Pre-Incarnation of Christ prophesied in the OT and fruiting in the New.I do not personally subscribe to that claim simply because as the author on my Blog article says,it is doubtful we would need a one thousand year warning of Jesus arrival.

As you suggest,the name Immanuel meaning 'God with us' is more likely to indicate the coming of an emissary rather than Jesus.As I have stated elsewhere the idea of a prediction of God incarnated on Earth was a constructed polemic used to form part of a Christophany as opposed to the Theophanic appearances of Angels in the OT.

Therefore the Isaiah quote cannot be excluded from the evidence!

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#29 Sandalphon

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 09:22 AM

View PostImperial Arts, on 02 December 2017 - 12:38 AM, said:


[url=https://ibb.co/eVo6kGPosted Image[/url]

Who painted this Salomé?

#30 Imperial Arts

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 06:31 PM

View PostSandalphon, on 05 December 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Who painted this Salomé?

Franz Paul Guillery
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#31 Sheperdess

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:41 PM

View Postvioletstar, on 04 December 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

Indeed it is abstract to all of us.The Immanuel narrative is one the founding quotes to construct a Christophany which implies a Pre-Incarnation of Christ prophesied in the OT and fruiting in the New.I do not personally subscribe to that claim simply because as the author on my Blog article says,it is doubtful we would need a one thousand year warning of Jesus arrival.

As you suggest,the name Immanuel meaning 'God with us' is more likely to indicate the coming of an emissary rather than Jesus.As I have stated elsewhere the idea of a prediction of God incarnated on Earth was a constructed polemic used to form part of a Christophany as opposed to the Theophanic appearances of Angels in the OT.

Therefore the Isaiah quote cannot be excluded from the evidence!
Wow.V maybe you are this Angel!

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#32 Imperial Arts

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 12:14 AM

Several of the prophets, including Moses, speak of the coming Messiah. "God With Us" (Immanuel) is a decent descriptor for the Jesus of the Apocalypse, but it's not terribly appropriate for the Gospel Jesus. He doesn't do many of the things the Old Testament Messiah is supposed to do. We don't have world peace and a unified world government with Christ as King of Kings, instead we have promises on the authority of St. John that such things are in the works and will eventually occur. The Messiah must do more than appear in literature, but it's obvious that has not yet occurred, so such is the endurance of the faithful & the patience of the saints.
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#33 Aurum

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 02:12 AM

Jesus Christ to me is the Messiah prophesied. To be saved from the sin is a means to peace. For this reason, Jesus Christ is said to have saved the world.



In the NT it says:

Quote

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace


I've been reading online about this and I found these quotes on a site. One assertion was that peace across the world was predicted to not necessarily be immediate, referencing Isaiah 53:2-12:

Quote

Isaiah 53:2-12



2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.


4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.



#34 Sheperdess

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:07 AM

But as Violet say why would this be predicting of Jesus 1000 year before?A long time for everyone to remember so those people who read it must all be dead.I dont think Isaiah talking of Jesus but the Christian try to make this fit in a story.

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#35 Aurum

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:50 AM

As opposed to the belief that the Messiah has not come and it is now much later? There are many things that were prophesised that Jesus Christ fulfilled. At the end of the day, if someone were to say that so and so passage did not eventuate, do you honestly believe that this would dissuade a Christian? The answer to that is that it is highly doubtful simply because such a matter is not central to Christianity. Isaiah goes on to say:

Quote

He was oppressed and afflicted,

yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.


10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


In all fairness, it doesn't really take any work to make it 'fit'.



#36 violetstar

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 11:28 AM

View PostAurum, on 06 December 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

As opposed to the belief that the Messiah has not come and it is now much later? There are many things that were prophesised that Jesus Christ fulfilled. At the end of the day, if someone were to say that so and so passage did not eventuate, do you honestly believe that this would dissuade a Christian? The answer to that is that it is highly doubtful simply because such a matter is not central to Christianity. Isaiah goes on to say:

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In all fairness, it doesn't really take any work to make it 'fit'.


The quite you give needs clarification by showing the context of its composition.The Book of Isaiah was constructed in three parts named Proto,Deutero and Trito by scholars.Your quote comes from Deutero-Isaiah which does not predict the coming of the Messiah as believed by the Christian Church.

The Deutero-Isaian part of the book describes how God will make Jerusalem the centre of his worldwide rule through a royal saviour (a messiah) who will destroy her oppressor (Babylon); this messiah is the Persian king Cyrus the Great, (not Jesus) who is merely the agent who brings about Yahweh's kingship.

Here is the Tanakh original:of your quote:


1Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? אמִ֥י הֶֽאֱמִ֖ין לִשְׁמֻֽעָתֵ֑נוּ וּזְר֥וֹעַ יְהֹוָ֖ה עַל־מִ֥י נִגְלָֽתָה:
2And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? בוַיַּ֨עַל כַּיּוֹנֵ֜ק לְפָנָ֗יו וְכַשֹּׁ֙רֶשׁ֙ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צִיָּ֔ה לֹא־תֹ֥אַר ל֖וֹ וְלֹ֣א הָדָ֑ר וְנִרְאֵ֥הוּ וְלֹֽא־מַרְאֶ֖ה וְנֶֽחְמְדֵֽהוּ:
3Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account. גנִבְזֶה֙ וַֽחֲדַ֣ל אִישִׁ֔ים אִ֥ישׁ מַכְאֹב֖וֹת וִיד֣וּעַ חֹ֑לִי וּכְמַסְתֵּ֚ר פָּנִים֙ מִמֶּ֔נּוּ נִבְזֶ֖ה וְלֹ֥א חֲשַׁבְנֻֽהוּ:
4Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed. דאָכֵ֚ן חֳלָיֵ֙נוּ֙ ה֣וּא נָשָׂ֔א וּמַכְאֹבֵ֖ינוּ סְבָלָ֑ם וַֽאֲנַ֣חְנוּ חֲשַׁבְנֻ֔הוּ נָג֛וּעַ מֻכֵּ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים וּמְעֻנֶּֽה:
5But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed. הוְהוּא֙ מְחֹלָ֣ל מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ מְדֻכָּ֖א מֵֽעֲוֹֽנוֹתֵ֑ינוּ מוּסַ֚ר שְׁלוֹמֵ֙נוּ֙ עָלָ֔יו וּבַֽחֲבֻֽרָת֖וֹ נִרְפָּא־לָֽנוּ:
6We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us. וכֻּלָּ֙נוּ֙ כַּצֹּ֣אן תָּעִ֔ינוּ אִ֥ישׁ לְדַרְכּ֖וֹ פָּנִ֑ינוּ וַֽיהֹוָה֙ הִפְגִּ֣יעַ בּ֔וֹ אֵ֖ת עֲו‍ֹ֥ן כֻּלָּֽנוּ:
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth. זנִגַּ֨שׂ וְה֣וּא נַֽעֲנֶה֘ וְלֹ֣א יִפְתַּח־פִּיו֒ כַּשֶּׂה֙ לַטֶּ֣בַח יוּבָ֔ל וּכְרָחֵ֕ל לִפְנֵ֥י גֹֽזְזֶ֖יהָ נֶֽאֱלָ֑מָה וְלֹ֥א יִפְתַּ֖ח פִּֽיו:
8From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them. חמֵעֹ֚צֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט֙ לֻקָּ֔ח וְאֶת־דּוֹר֖וֹ מִ֣י יְשׂוֹחֵ֑חַ כִּ֚י נִגְזַר֙ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ חַיִּ֔ים מִפֶּ֥שַׁע עַמִּ֖י נֶ֥גַע לָֽמוֹ:
9And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. טוַיִּתֵּ֚ן אֶת־רְשָׁעִים֙ קִבְר֔וֹ וְאֶת־עָשִׁ֖יר בְּמֹתָ֑יו עַל לֹֽא־חָמָ֣ס עָשָׂ֔ה וְלֹ֥א מִרְמָ֖ה בְּפִֽיו:
10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. יוַֽיהֹוָ֞ה חָפֵ֚ץ דַּכְּאוֹ֙ הֶֽחֱלִ֔י אִם־תָּשִׂ֚ים אָשָׁם֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ יִרְאֶ֥ה זֶ֖רַע יַֽאֲרִ֣יךְ יָמִ֑ים וְחֵ֥פֶץ יְהֹוָ֖ה בְּיָד֥וֹ יִצְלָֽח:
11From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear. יאמֵֽעֲמַ֚ל נַפְשׁוֹ֙ יִרְאֶ֣ה יִשְׂבָּ֔ע בְּדַעְתּ֗וֹ יַצְדִּ֥יק צַדִּ֛יק עַבְדִּ֖י לָֽרַבִּ֑ים וַֽעֲו‍ֹנֹתָ֖ם ה֥וּא יִסְבֹּֽל:
12Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors. יבלָכֵ֞ן אֲחַלֶּק־ל֣וֹ בָֽרַבִּ֗ים וְאֶת־עֲצוּמִים֘ יְחַלֵּ֣ק שָׁלָל֒ תַּ֗חַת אֲשֶׁ֨ר הֶֽעֱרָ֚ה לַמָּ֙וֶת֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ וְאֶת־פֹּֽשְׁעִ֖ים נִמְנָ֑ה וְהוּא֙ חֵֽטְא־רַבִּ֣ים נָשָׂ֔א וְלַפֹּֽשְׁעִ֖ים יַפְגִּֽיעַ:



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Edited by violetstar, 06 December 2017 - 12:16 PM.

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#37 Aurum

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 01:14 PM

You might say that, but I do not believe you have given sufficient reasons to justify that that is the one and only correct interpretation. Your main premise is that Isaiah is divided into three parts and 53 does not refer the coming of the Messiah, but you have not proved this premise definitively. I would say that 53 appears to be more focused on what would come to pass after the Messiah has come.

In the NT, Isaiah 53 is referenced to Jesus Christ. As in John 12:38 which quotes Isaiah 53:1

Quote

But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Matthew 8.17 quotes Isaiah 53:4:

Quote

that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "He Himself took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses.”

In the passage Romans 10:16 Paul says

Quote

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?

Even with checking wiki -- Rabbis have associated 53 with the Messiah:

Quote

Babylonian Talmud: The Messiah --what is his name?...The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, `surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b) Midrash Ruth Rabbah: "Another explanation (of Ruth ii.14): -- He is speaking of king Messiah; `Come hither,' draw near to the throne; `and eat of the bread,' that is, the bread of the kingdom; `and dip thy morsel in the vinegar,' this refers to his chastisements, as it is said, `But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities'".


You have given a counter interpretation but by the same token some scholars would disagree with it, too. Personally, I think that referring 'servant' to the Nation of Israel is quite different to what it explicitly states. If 53 was not given the other interpretation, then it is eerily similar to what happened to Jesus Christ, not just in one line but in all parts.

#38 violetstar

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 02:44 PM

Yes of course Wiki says it concerns the Messiah but nt te one you are attempting to show!what scholars would disagree?Answer:Christian ones! The evidence is clear,that Jewish eschatology in the the OT was shoehorned to fit.

The Babylonian quote is a prime example of an attempt to shoehorn to make it fit.It says nothing about Jesus as the Messiah so you will need to re-read the Talmud in context.No Rabbi will disagree with me The only argument among Jewish scholars is whether Isa.53 is referencing the Messiah or Israel itself.

The Jewish Messiah is completely different and here is an example why they do not recognise Jesus as fulfilling the prophecies: "Before his death on June 12, 1994, Lubavitcher Rabbi Menachem Schneerson was considered by many in his ultra-orthodox sect to be the Messiah"

Many of the Jewish interpretations of this chapter simply confuse things futrher.Here is one:

An 11th century writing, Mysteries of R. Shi’on ben Yohai, states:"Messiah, the son of Ephraim, will die there, and Israel will mourn for him. And afterwards the Holy One will reveal to them Messiah, the son of David, whom Israel will desire to stone, saying, Thou spakest falsely; already is the Messiah slain, and there is none other Messiah to stand up (after him): and so they will despise him, as it is written, “Despised and forlorn of men;”

Here is an example of the “two Messiahs” approach. Messiah, son of Ephraim (who was a son of Joseph), would suffer and die first. Afterwards would come the second Messiah, the son of David. Here, Isaiah 53:1 is applied to Messiah, son of David, whom Israel would not readily accept, but instead desire to kill.

Many different Rabbinic interpretations over many centuries.But my premise is based on the OT periods where Isaiah was birthed.Your counter argument is based upon NT interpretation given by Paul and Ignatios of Antioch.

So tere were two Messiahs and in case you missed it on the other thread,there were three Jesus!Essentially the critical problem underpinning the whole NT is that the texts employ three Jesus characters making up the drama.

The first is Jesus who lived c,100 years before the birth of Jesus Christ.He was basically a warrior type Monk from the Essene community in Qumran.The second Jesus is Christ who was invented by Paul who fused the Judaic 'Son of Rigorousness of the Essene with the Hellenistic concepts of the Resurrected or Regenerative gods.Paul also drew upon Stoic Philosophy and injected the basic ethics of Stoic thought into his creation.

Although antithetical these first two Jesus' explain the apparent contradiction of Jesus in Matt.5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. against Matt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
The answer to this problem is that the firs saying comes from the Pauine Jesus,the latter from Qumran's Jesus.

The third Jesus features prominently in the Gospel narratives specifically in portraying Jesus as having had a normal human existence incarnate on Earth.This Jesus was the literary creation of Ignatius Bishop of Antioch.The construction was polemical and designed to combat what the early church deemed a highly dangerous movement.These were the Docetics who taught that Jesus after his Ascension was a spirit who could be worshipped without the intermediary of the church.Ignatios then set about creating the human Jesus inventing the flight into Egypt,Herods non-existent Census and every aspect where Jesus is shown to hold human attributes.

Edited by violetstar, 06 December 2017 - 02:59 PM.

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#39 Aurum

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 03:39 PM

And if the servant does refer to the Messiah then it closely correlates to Jesus Christ. I do acknowledge a Christian would say this readily. I had mentioned that Rabbis had associated the servant as the Messiah without referencing Jesus Christ.

That common counter-interpretation is not the only authoritative interpretation because there is no definitive proof. I understand you are saying that there are different ways to interpret the Messiah. You say your interpretation springs from OT periods but you reference the '90s and the 11 century, long before the NT was written by those who were in a position and authority to interpret the OT. I am reading here that the interpretation that 53 related to Israel came from 11th century by Rashi. I don't call it shoehorning if there is literally nothing to change in the prophecy while the other interpretation requires a symbolic understanding that it is the nation of Israel.

#40 violetstar

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 03:54 PM

Thats the problem of interpreting things written centuries earlier and pasting the concepts onto a different period.There are lots of problems in both the Old and New due to mistranslation and misappropriation,An example is the mis-reading of θεύς (theús) against θιός (thiós) in the various Greek MSS.The first relates to a deity,the latter an earthly ruler.

But this has all veered away from the topic so I would like to get back to the question(s) Who is the Angel of the Lord and Is the Lord a Psychopath if possible.

Edited by violetstar, 06 December 2017 - 03:54 PM.

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