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Is The Lord A Psychopath?

God Angel of the lord evl

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#1 violetstar

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 01:14 PM

In an article submitted to my external Blog the perennial theological problem of the entity termed 'The Angel of The Lord' has reared up again.For those unfamiliar with this Biblical paradoxical mystery the basics are that this Angel is completely different to any other known Angelic being.On the one hand acting as God while on the other hand acting independently,this entity commits Genocide apparently ordained by God who then rebukes the Angel for committing an act of evil.
In other places the Angel acts as a Messenger of God bringing prophecies of miraculous births and of redemption.

Archaeology of ancient Israel attests to the occurrence of famine,drought and disease and it follows that the academic explanation of the pestilence wrought by the Angel was a natural event with no religious meaning.For once I am not interested in any academic analysis and am resorting to the spiritual and mystical viewpoint.

That this is a popular topic is clear from the huge rise in visitors to the Blog at an unprecedented level and already there have been some interesting comments.

I do not have permission to reprint the article here but I welcome any ideas as to who or what this Angel may be,both on the Forum or as a comment on the actual article itself. https://violetstarma...weebly.com/blog

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#2 Imperial Arts

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 08:07 PM

The Old Testament is 2000+ years old and was written about things hundreds or even thousands of years before then. That the authors couldn't make a clear and unified decision on things is just a consequence of founding the entire worldview on a patchwork project.

Angels are named as if they are parts of God: God's face, God's voice, God's light, even God's poison. A wide selection of Jewish thought considers angels to be cameo appearances by God using a sock puppet account. Other factions of Judaism dispute the existence of angels altogether, so there is no solid ground on which to stand in discussing the topic.

Mormon teaching leans toward the argument that angels are human souls which have been exalted, and that only the rebel angels are never incarnated. The UFO crowd might explain the same incidents as intervention by the orbital beings ordinarily aloof to terrestrial existence who get involved on command from their galactic superiors.

A frighteningly high percentage of Christians genuinely believe in angels as winged white people in robes.




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#3 violetstar

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 10:20 PM

Many thanks for your input IA.

The idea of exalted human souls here relates to Enoch as Metatron though it seems an equation formed by early Kabbalists out of Talmudic references.and the Pseudepigrapha or Apocrypha writings were another source,in particular the Book of Enoch that gives Metatron as the Lesser Yahweh.

The Angel of the Lord who has no personalised name and is completely different than other Angels who are clearly subservient to God in Biblical writings.It is only this entity which both acts as God but is also seemingly subservient to Him.Hence the mystery.

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#4 Aurum

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 02:15 AM

I'm speculating here:

But fire is the archetype of knowing and the Angel of the Lord joins the fire whereupon the person sees God. At the same time, the Angel of Lord is differentiated. As you can see here in Judges 13:15-16:

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And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made already a kid for thee. And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord.

But then the passages go on to say the Angel of the Lord goes into the flame and the witnesses see God.

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For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.
But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.

And Manoah said unto his wife, we shall surely die because we have seen God.

Additionally, in Exodus, the Angel of the Lord appeared in the flames to Moses, and then God called Moses to the bush.

#5 violetstar

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:25 AM

Thats a good observation.Fire is a major theme in the OT.God utilises fire to guide: Nehemiah 9:12. By day you led them with a pillar of cloud, and by night with a pillar of fire to give them light on the way they were to take.
It is also used as a weapon: Exodus 14:24. During the last watch of the night the Lord looked down from the pillar of fire and cloud at the Egyptian army and threw it into confusion.

In another place fire is turned against Gods own people as shown in Numbers 11:1-3
Now the people complained about their hardships in the hearing of the Lord, and when he heard them his anger was aroused. Then fire from the Lord burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp. 2 When the people cried out to Moses, he prayed to the Lord and the fire died down. 3 So that place was called Taberah because fire from the Lord had burned among them.

Sometimes the fire needed authorising by unstated means or you would be zapped by God in your worship:Numbers 26:61 But Nadab and Abihu died when they made an offering before the Lord with unauthorized fire.

Throughout the OT fire is most commonly used as a destructive force and we are told God answers by fire 1 Kings 18:24 and the whole of the Books of Kings alone is concerned with setting fires.

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#6 Sheperdess

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 12:00 PM


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#7 Sheperdess

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 12:02 PM

Also God is watching the England people!


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#8 Aurum

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 12:34 PM

Fire being used as wrathful violence. Yes, well, this is why my focus is more on the NT. I lean towards the concept of a loving God. I think that it's difficult to reconcile those natures between the texts to be honest.

I was reading those passages you referenced but I don't think that the quote of God answering by fire is meant in the destructive sense in 1 Kings 18:24 from what I can see. As the passages go on to say, the fire was lit and in 1 Kings 18:39. "when the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, "The LORD, He is God; the LORD, He is God". It's common for the presence of God to be referenced with fire. I would also venture to say that throwing the people into confusion was not done by fire as the passage does not specifically say that. One of these days I should read the Old Testament from start to finish.

Edited by Aurum, 30 November 2017 - 12:35 PM.


#9 violetstar

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 03:49 PM

I totally agree.I do not see any reconciliation between the wrathful Yahweh of the OT and the(generally)loving God of the New.

But Hebrews 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.This seems to imply a continuation of fear that if apostasy for example sets in then there will be retribution by fire.

Still,this leaves us with the original problem of the relationship between Yahweh and his Angel of the Lord,if we take Yahweh to be the Lord referred to.

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#10 Imperial Arts

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 01:42 AM

View Postvioletstar, on 30 November 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Thats a good observation.Fire is a major theme in the OT.God utilises fire to guide: Nehemiah 9:12. By day you led them with a pillar of cloud, and by night with a pillar of fire to give them light on the way they were to take.
It is also used as a weapon: Exodus 14:24. During the last watch of the night the Lord looked down from the pillar of fire and cloud at the Egyptian army and threw it into confusion.

Water and fire are the persistent poetic devices of the Bible, from start to finish.

Off topic, but I am of that camp who see this and other elements of the Exodus as connected to a geologic event, perhaps even the destruction of Thera. The swarms, flaming hail, befouled water, darkness, and finally a tsunami as the African tectonic plate lifted and settled all match well enough to what we could expect of records from 3500 years ago. The updraft from the volcano would be evident at night as a column and in the day as a cloud, providing a horizon point for orientation.
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#11 Curious Cat

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 03:08 AM

Have you evoked any of the angels before? I tend to divorce what has been said about the angels in the Bible from my own personal experiences with them. Some of the spirits predate Israelitism/Judaism.

#12 Imperial Arts

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 03:54 AM

View PostCurious Cat, on 01 December 2017 - 03:08 AM, said:

Have you evoked any of the angels before? I tend to divorce what has been said about the angels in the Bible from my own personal experiences with them. Some of the spirits predate Israelitism/Judaism.

Angels in the Bible appear unbidden, announcing great and terrible tidings. The angels of the Bible are instantly recognizable as divine beings once they are revealed. I have never had any such experience of angels as are described in the Bible.

I personally like to think of angels in the context of ceremonial magic as a means of gaining access to the inner workings of nature, impersonal reservoirs of knowledge and power greater than those of mortal creatures. We might like to think of them and represent them as people, but I do not see "people" as necessarily high on the universal totem pole.

It is much easier for me to entertain the idea that the angels of Bible lore are extraterrestrials than to suppose that putti and winged harpists fly around making sure all is well with the sons of Adam and reporting back to God on his throne. The classic angel image is stagnant, I do not think that it conveys the magnitude of glory which ought to attach to the most powerful of all things created.
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#13 Aurum

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 04:34 AM

If the Angel is referred to as the Angel of the Lord then how do we know the OT is referring to the same Angel of the Lord each time? The NT, for instance, refers to Gabriel as the Angel of the Lord at one point.

I once went to a Theosophical talk of a person who could see angels during meditation. He said that the angels that occupy trees, for instance, will have the life cycle of the tree imprinted on the angel (the leaves, seeds, etc) so that such a memory or blueprint allows the tree to grow according to its species.

Edited by Aurum, 01 December 2017 - 04:35 AM.


#14 violetstar

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:24 AM

View PostAurum, on 01 December 2017 - 04:34 AM, said:

If the Angel is referred to as the Angel of the Lord then how do we know the OT is referring to the same Angel of the Lord each time? The NT, for instance, refers to Gabriel as the Angel of the Lord at one point.

I once went to a Theosophical talk of a person who could see angels during meditation. He said that the angels that occupy trees, for instance, will have the life cycle of the tree imprinted on the angel (the leaves, seeds, etc) so that such a memory or blueprint allows the tree to grow according to its species.
I cannot find any reference to Gabriel with the epithet Angel of the Lord.Which version o the Bible are you using?Gabriel is described as a man in Daniel.but in the NT he becomes an angel.Luke 1.

Te idea of angels living in trees is new to me and seems to be at odds with Gods orders in Deut.16:21 Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the Lord thy God, which thou shalt make thee.Such a prohibition would exclude Gods own emissaries from a holy area.

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#15 Aurum

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:39 AM

I think that passage is saying not to plant a tree dedicated to the goddess Asherah near the altar of the Lord, so I don't think it's inconsistent with that passage necessarily.

As to the NT, there's an example here:

Quote

Luke 1:11-19 --
11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear.13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. 16 He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

18 Zechariah asked the angel, “How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years.”
19 The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.


#16 wren

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 05:11 PM

I'm not a big bible person, but my uninformed opinion was that Gabriel is the Angel of the Lord. Why? That's what I picked up through osmosis when I went to church as an Episcopalian.

#17 violetstar

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 05:51 PM

View Postwren, on 01 December 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

I'm not a big bible person, but my uninformed opinion was that Gabriel is the Angel of the Lord. Why? That's what I picked up through osmosis when I went to church as an Episcopalian.
I doubt that.The references to Gabriel is of an angel of the Lord not the angel of the Lord who is a specific entity who at times acts independently of God.

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#18 wren

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 07:22 PM

View Postvioletstar, on 01 December 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

I doubt that.The references to Gabriel is of an angel of the Lord not the angel of the Lord who is a specific entity who at times acts independently of God.

Read what I typed again. I didn't claim that Gabriel is the angel of the lord, but that through osmosis in an Episcopalian setting, I had come to think of Gabriel as the angel of the lord without having read the Bible. Somewhere between the sermons and the "Bible Study" I was naturally lead to that conclusion. I was supplying a data point, not arguing for one interpretation over another.

Edited by wren, 01 December 2017 - 07:22 PM.


#19 violetstar

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 09:10 PM

If you read mine I did not suggest you were claiming that.I was merely pointing out that Gabriel was doubtfully a suitable candidate.

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#20 Curious Cat

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 09:37 PM

View PostImperial Arts, on 01 December 2017 - 03:54 AM, said:

It is much easier for me to entertain the idea that the angels of Bible lore are extraterrestrials than to suppose that putti and winged harpists fly around making sure all is well with the sons of Adam and reporting back to God on his throne. The classic angel image is stagnant, I do not think that it conveys the magnitude of glory which ought to attach to the most powerful of all things created.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply, IA. I have found the experiences with them to be more like descriptions of ET encounters too.





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