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Vinegar Lore


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#1 wren

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 12:37 AM

I am trying to sour some wine for making four thieves vinegar. I'd appreciate any lore available on the intersection of making vinegar, vinegar tinctures, and shrubs with magic. How do you make it magic?

#2 Old Man

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 06:36 AM

You charge it?

#3 wren

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:28 PM

 Old Man, on 11 October 2017 - 06:36 AM, said:

You charge it?

Which charging do you mean? I've seen that refer to putting it out in moonlight, putting it on top of a radionics machine, putting it in an arrangement of orgonite and/or semi-precious stones, complex spirit interactions, and variations of "laying on of hands."

9/10ths of that stuff seems pretty New Age for making vinegar, a practice older than civilization.

#4 violetstar

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:33 PM

 wren, on 11 October 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

Which charging do you mean? I've seen that refer to putting it out in moonlight, putting it on top of a radionics machine, putting it in an arrangement of orgonite and/or semi-precious stones, complex spirit interactions, and variations of "laying on of hands."

9/10ths of that stuff seems pretty New Age for making vinegar, a practice older than civilization.
Who was making it before?Savages?
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#5 wren

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:37 PM

 violetstar, on 11 October 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:


Who was making it before?Savages?

Sure. Perhaps a bit offensive sounding, but alcohol and thus acetic acid were in man's tool kit before cities.

#6 violetstar

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:42 PM

An antiquarian term for the uncivilised.
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#7 violetstar

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:56 PM

The use of Vinegar is known in ancient Babylonian civilisation as a preservative,Had they wished to charge it magically the method is likely to have been within a receptacle,possibly a shallow bowl laid on a stone Altar outdoors aligned to specific stars.
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#8 wren

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 03:05 PM

 violetstar, on 11 October 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

An antiquarian term for the uncivilised.

Post-modernist lit-crit makes everything problematic.


#9 wren

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 03:08 PM

 violetstar, on 11 October 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

The use of Vinegar is known in ancient Babylonian civilisation as a preservative,Had they wished to charge it magically the method is likely to have been within a receptacle,possibly a shallow bowl laid on a stone Altar outdoors aligned to specific stars.

This was a malt vinegar, I presume?

#10 violetstar

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 03:17 PM

Apparently Palm vinegar though as Barley was a major commodity in Mesopotamia it may well have been malted too.
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#11 wren

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 03:20 PM

 violetstar, on 11 October 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

Apparently Palm vinegar though as Barley was a major commodity in Mesopotamia it may well have been malted too.

Thanks.

#12 Orlando

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 04:15 PM

 wren, on 11 October 2017 - 12:37 AM, said:

I am trying to sour some wine for making four thieves vinegar. I'd appreciate any lore available on the intersection of making vinegar, vinegar tinctures, and shrubs with magic. How do you make it magic?

 Old Man, on 11 October 2017 - 06:36 AM, said:

You charge it?

 wren, on 11 October 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

Which charging do you mean? I've seen that refer to putting it out in moonlight, putting it on top of a radionics machine, putting it in an arrangement of orgonite and/or semi-precious stones, complex spirit interactions, and variations of "laying on of hands."

9/10ths of that stuff seems pretty New Age for making vinegar, a practice older than civilization.

'Thieves Vinegar' with no magic done to it is not going to be magical.
You asked, "how do you make it magic?", and Old Man's reply was correct - you charge it.
The 'charging' Old Man is referring to is magical charging, i.e. you do magic over it, with it, to it; you imbue it with intent. That is how you make a mundane object magical.
Most books on magic, particularly the ones on natural magic or witchcraft, will have a section on charging - charging your tools, charging your fetishes, charging your spells, etc.
_

#13 wren

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 06:07 PM

 Orlando, on 11 October 2017 - 04:15 PM, said:


'Thieves Vinegar' with no magic done to it is not going to be magical.

Why? Many substances are seen as inherently magical. Anvil dust, brick dust, river water, horseshoes, four leaf clovers, etc. Not that I was arguing for not doing magic on it in the first place.

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You asked, "how do you make it magic?", and Old Man's reply was correct - you charge it.

That's not quite correct. I italicized 'you' for a reason. I am asking how individuals (past and present) choose to "charge" vinegar. Though I avoided that terminology for a reason. It heavily implies an energy model, and with it New Agey ideas like visualizing white light... that, coming out of the New Age, aren't very traditional.


Quote

The 'charging' Old Man is referring to is magical charging, i.e. you do magic over it, with it, to it; you imbue it with intent. That is how you make a mundane object magical.


I am aware. That answer happens to be so generic and non-specific as to be practically useless. Hence the follow-up question.

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Most books on magic, particularly the ones on natural magic or witchcraft, will have a section on charging - charging your tools, charging your fetishes, charging your spells, etc.
_

I don't own a single book that speaks specifically about "charging" vinegar, unless it is buried in one of my "secrets of the psalms" books with their horrible indexes. Hence the question. I will point you to my reply to Old Man wherein I mention many things I've seen refered to as "charging." It should be clear that I am familiar with the term.

#14 Orlando

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 07:45 PM

 wren, on 11 October 2017 - 06:07 PM, said:

That's not quite correct. I italicized 'you' for a reason. I am asking how individuals (past and present) choose to "charge" vinegar.

Ah, I see, you know. That makes my above post a bit of redundant post then.
_

#15 violetstar

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 08:30 PM

Critical thinking had shown me the mis-appropriation of what the OP actually asked which Orlando had not seen.ie you .There are other flaws in Orlandos reply but to keep on topic I can add that Four Thieves Vinegar appears to have its origin in a French recipe to combat the Plague.

In a book from the 1930s the claim within is that it contains a facsimile of an original recipe found on a poster extent at the time of the Marseille Plague outbreak.As Wiki say,it is a feasible recipe to combat at least the spread of the disease as it contains flea repellent herbs.
In modern culture I would guess the vinegar itself is more popular as an ingredient of spells found in the lists of suppliers such as Lucky Mojo.Again there is mention of it in 19thC Ozark lore.

@ Wren I am interested as to what your intent is for the vinegar once prepared(if any)magically or if you perceive a health benefit from its application?
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#16 wren

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 10:37 PM

 violetstar, on 11 October 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

@ Wren I am interested as to what your intent is for the vinegar once prepared(if any)magically or if you perceive a health benefit from its application?


The recipe I have decided on focuses on "hot" symbolism. Red pepper, black pepper, garlic, mustard, and red wine vinegar. Not the oldest recipe, I know, but camphor is a serious health hazard. Also, this recipe is edible; it is basically hot sauce.

My intention is for it to serve as a health tonic and apotropaic.




#17 Brennan

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:43 AM

I hear that leaving an open bottle of wine (1/2 - 3/4 full) in a warm place, will turn the wine into a wine vinegar.. If you go with that, you could put your other ingredients into the wine bottle.. but keep in mind this process can take anywhere from a couple weeks to six months to produce a good vinegar. For sour wine though, depending on how sour you want it, it could be ready in as little as a few days, possibly a week.
If you can find unpasteurized vinegar, adding a splash to your wine will quicken the process. The bacteria will form a 'mother', a thick blubbery colony.. the vinegar is harvest-able when the mass has sunk to the bottom. To keep it going, whenever you take vinegar, add the same amount of wine in turn.

#18 wren

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:54 AM

View PostBrennan, on 12 October 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:

I hear that leaving an open bottle of wine (1/2 - 3/4 full) in a warm place, will turn the wine into a wine vinegar.. If you go with that, you could put your other ingredients into the wine bottle.. but keep in mind this process can take anywhere from a couple weeks to six months to produce a good vinegar. For sour wine though, depending on how sour you want it, it could be ready in as little as a few days, possibly a week.
If you can find unpasteurized vinegar, adding a splash to your wine will quicken the process. The bacteria will form a 'mother', a thick blubbery colony.. the vinegar is harvest-able when the mass has sunk to the bottom. To keep it going, whenever you take vinegar, add the same amount of wine in turn.

I am using store bought while experimenting.

Just leaving the bottle open is a no go, though. It needs a permeable lid to keep out bugs. Don't want bugs to get into it and cause mold to ruin the batch.

A crock with a fabric covering is supposed to be great. I'm trying out a mason jar with a sheet of paper towel screwed down with the ring. No mother on batch one, because I wanted to see if it was necessary or if it could culture with wild micro-organisms.

#19 Orlando

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:07 AM

View Postvioletstar, on 11 October 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

Critical thinking had shown me the mis-appropriation of what the OP actually asked which Orlando had not seen.ie you .

Oh dear, that is a bit crass, Violet; talking about me, but not to me; and particularly since I had already acknowledged my mistake with my post #14, above yours.

Quote

There are other flaws in Orlandos reply but to keep on topic..................

Not so fast, Violet, that is a bit of a cop-out. I would like to hear about it, please.
If you know of any mundane object having acquired magical properties without magic having been performed, or without it having been ritually gathered during certain planetary phases, or without a group mind thinking about it in certain ways, or without it having been named, or presented, or dedicated to spiritual forces, or without it having been in contact with spiritual forces such as sacred and holy places or a person, such as Saints relics have been etc., then I would like to know - put me right, please.
_

Edited by Orlando, 12 October 2017 - 07:07 AM.


#20 Brennan

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:55 PM

View Postwren, on 12 October 2017 - 05:54 AM, said:

I am using store bought while experimenting.

Just leaving the bottle open is a no go, though....
...necessary or if it could culture with wild micro-organisms.

Yeah, from what I know of you, I figured you would already know how to do this, but I was surprised by the lack of practical responses to your original post as from what I know about rootwork, Practicality is an intrinsic aspect of the system. I don't recall rootworkers ever charging things per se, but petitions and prayers may fall under that term..... but even so.... that's more of a thing that happens while the casting/work is taking place and so might be components in and of themselves.
The thing about rootwork to keep in mind - which Wren pointed out earlier - is that these objects have inherent properties that are otherworldly. Lit candles produce heat, nails are sharp, putting someone's name in a glass bottle with high john root and pissing in it makes the person your bitch.. it's intrinsic.
And yes, Susan, I can hear you in the background saying that all power exists in the practitioner and not in the object itself.. to which I would counter that in the practice of rootwork, a person's power is being used to bring the inherent properties in an object together, which is why you'd use basil in a money gain spell and not sulfur which is better suited to banishings and fart jokes.
Wren, I am very curious though about why shrubbery and vinegar are in the same question.. care to elaborate?

Edited by Brennan, 12 October 2017 - 09:57 PM.






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