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What If Those Who Pursue The Occult And Magic Are Just Deluded?


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#1 Lazarus Benedict

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 11:10 PM

The thought must have crossed the mind of anyone interested in these subjects...
It's not the flesh I'm after, but the howling ghost within...

#2 wren

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 11:48 PM

Nothing changes.

#3 The Stalking Hyena

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 12:05 AM

Who decides who is deluded?
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#4 Lazarus Benedict

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 12:42 AM

View PostThe Stalking Hyena, on 07 October 2017 - 12:05 AM, said:

Who decides who is deluded?

Are pronounced "mad" by "officials" destitute of evidence that themselves are "sane."

Edited by Lazarus Benedict, 07 October 2017 - 12:45 AM.

It's not the flesh I'm after, but the howling ghost within...

#5 Imperial Arts

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 12:50 AM

A pretty good percentage of people involved in magic are accurately described as delusional, mentally unstable, or just plain crazy. If you don't want to be counted among them, hold yourself to a higher standard.

Be careful of explaining something to yourself well enough to believe it, when you have deliberately overlooked evidence to the contrary. Don't expect that "I do it my way" is always a workable way of doing things. Sometimes you don't get the answers you want, and in those times you have an opportunity to learn and grow instead of deciding it's simpler if you assume you got it right.

If you are finding your results not matching your expectations, the problem is likely somewhere deep. You might have to re-think large portions of your work to catch up to where you thought you already were. That's just how it is.
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#6 The Stalking Hyena

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 12:55 AM

View PostLazarus Benedict, on 07 October 2017 - 12:42 AM, said:

Are pronounced "mad" by "officials" destitute of evidence that themselves are "sane."

In that case, who can you trust?
Ars est celare artem.

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#7 Spida

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 02:50 AM

To be deluded is to believe that reality is not as strange or stranger than fiction. If I ever feel delusional all I need to do is remember the truth. That we exist on a giant rock suspended in an infinite vacuum, surrounded by a bunch of other giant rocks. That circle around a huge flaming ball of nuclear fusion and fission for over 4 billion years and nothing has gone wrong yet, or has it. None the less, that is insanity. It's easy to forget the truth when you are nicely tucked away within your own little coherent corner of society...reality and truth is strange beyond comprehension. Deluded is a label that others apply who are ignorant of the truth.

Edit:
Okay so some are composed of a large percentage of water(Jupiter) as well. That should be good.

Edited by Spida, 07 October 2017 - 03:27 AM.


#8 Monkey Sage

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 07:22 AM

I believe we all are to varying degrees, and I believe there's value in that. In a strange way, it's almost like voluntarily adopting delusions about the occult and magic are a precursor to a deeper understanding, and a future unravelling of more insidious delusions about reality and identity. If that makes any sense.

So, we adopt a certain set of delusions. We invest into them and behave as though they are not delusions but are accurate interpretations of reality. At some point, something comes along either externally (you lose a job, a loved one passes, you're diagnosed with an illness) or internally (just one of those weird fucking moments of insight that come at 7AM when you're in the shower) and you realize one or more of those delusions for what they are. That moment of realization could begin a series of other realizations that go beyond the delusions you adopted. You go beyond just questioning those beliefs you adopted, and you begin to wonder what else you've deluded yourself into.

It's a bit contradictory to say that adopting the delusion that magic is real is necessary to eventually arriving at the true realization later on that magic is real. This is only something that's possible when that first delusion of "magic is real" is shattered and you're forced to confront the truth that, no, it's not. From there, usually one of three things happen:

1. That's the end of it. Magic isn't real, you leave all this silly nonsense behind and get back to being a "real adult".

2. You question everything about the belief you just lost and the mind that allowed you to believe that in the first place, and how it was possible that it made you feel the way you did, and yet everything you learned about symbolism and sympathy still seem to hold up in a secular context so ... is magic really "not real"? Maybe it was just my ideas about what magic is that were faulty, and what was lacking was my understanding of the true nature of reality. Maybe magic isn't what I thought it was and yet it's exactly what it's described as, and there's no contradiction at all between the two.

3. Maybe it's real, maybe it isn't. I don't really care because I don't have much else going for me and this is familiar so I'll just keep moving ahead and see where life takes me. (Magical agnosticism.)

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#9 Monkey Sage

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 07:23 AM

View Postwren, on 06 October 2017 - 11:48 PM, said:

Nothing changes.

You're amazing, wren. What took me paragraphs to say, you perfectly sum up in two words. This community is very lucky to have you :)

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#10 wren

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 05:11 PM

View PostMonkey Sage, on 07 October 2017 - 07:23 AM, said:



You're amazing, wren. What took me paragraphs to say, you perfectly sum up in two words. This community is very lucky to have you :)

We are lucky to have you as well. I doubt most readers looked at those two words long enough to get all those implications.

#11 Lazarus Benedict

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 06:34 PM

View Postwren, on 07 October 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

I doubt most readers looked at those two words long enough to get all those implications.

I plead guilty to this.
It's not the flesh I'm after, but the howling ghost within...

#12 Lazarus Benedict

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 06:52 PM

View PostThe Stalking Hyena, on 07 October 2017 - 12:55 AM, said:

In that case, who can you trust?

To be honest, I don't know anymore.
It's not the flesh I'm after, but the howling ghost within...

#13 The Stalking Hyena

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 10:21 PM

View PostLazarus Benedict, on 07 October 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

To be honest, I don't know anymore.

Do you remember what it felt like when you began?
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#14 SilentSeeker

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 01:08 AM

Greetings,

Am going to posit the idea, in addition to all the good stuff that's been said already, that unless one is an experimental scientist with a competent group of peers to review and test one's results, the initial question about the occult can be expanded to include a whole swath of 'mundane' subjects about which one assumes/claims knowledge.

Am going to go out on a limb and make a declarative statement: there is nothing one experiences in life that isn't in some measure a delusion. Unless one is consciously omniscient, the degree of ignorance one possesses in regard to other aspects of existence makes one's worldview a delusion by default. At least in my humble (and deluded) opinion.

So in essence, the question could be potentially rephrased and posed to you thusly LB:

Do you find the collective delusion of early 21st century Western Civilization: the American/Canadian version sans magick an attractive enough delusion to buy into as opposed to the same 'early 21st century blah blah' with it? The moment one answers 'yes' to the former, then that's it, game's over as far as magick is concerned...

...until the answer becomes not 'yes' again, of course (while one's answers may be, in some regard, an accurate reflection of reality/deduction made from one's experiences of reality: they need not necessarily be so).

Not for nothing, kinda feel that this question you pose LB, is why a fair # of occultists claim agnosticism as opposed to outright and Absolute with a capital 'A' knowledge.

Cheers and Be Well

P.S: The preceding all said, will add a layer of complexity to it and say, the delusions a person adopts into their reality map may be taken on for reasons that may be reasonable or unreasonable; so perhaps another analogous question could be whether one believes in magick based on premises that have been soundly deduced...just an afterthought

Edited by SilentSeeker, 09 October 2017 - 07:02 AM.

“The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?”
―Zhuangzi


The Tao gives rise to all forms, yet it has no form of its own.

If you attempt to fix a picture to it in your mind, you will lose it.

This is like pinning a butterfly: the husk is captured, but the flying is lost.

Why not be content with simply experiencing it?

--Attributed to Lao-tzu


#15 The Stalking Hyena

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 01:16 PM

View PostSilentSeeker, on 08 October 2017 - 01:08 AM, said:

Am going to go out on a limb and make a declarative statement: there is nothing one experiences in life that isn't in some measure a delusion. Unless one is consciously omniscient, the degree of ignorance one possesses in regard to other aspects of existence makes one's worldview a delusion by default. At least in my humble (and deluded) opinion.


You're a wild man.
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#16 Lazarus Benedict

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 04:45 PM

View PostThe Stalking Hyena, on 07 October 2017 - 10:21 PM, said:

Do you remember what it felt like when you began?

You mean when I began to be interested in the occult?
It's not the flesh I'm after, but the howling ghost within...

#17 Lazarus Benedict

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 05:16 PM

View PostSilentSeeker, on 08 October 2017 - 01:08 AM, said:


Do you find the collective delusion of early 21st century Western Civilization: the American/Canadian version sans magick an attractive enough delusion to buy into as opposed the same 'early 21st century blah blah' with it?

When you say "collective delusion" ,do you mean the Sorcery of the Spectacle?
It's not the flesh I'm after, but the howling ghost within...

#18 SilentSeeker

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 05:36 PM

View PostThe Stalking Hyena, on 08 October 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:



You're a wild man.

Pardon? Not quite sure how you mean that or why, care to enlighten me please sir?

View PostLazarus Benedict, on 08 October 2017 - 05:16 PM, said:



When you say "collective delusion" ,do you mean the Sorcery of the Spectacle?

Am not familiar with the term, so have to say 'no,' though it reads as if it could be in the same vein/ballpark

Edited by SilentSeeker, 08 October 2017 - 05:40 PM.

“The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?”
―Zhuangzi


The Tao gives rise to all forms, yet it has no form of its own.

If you attempt to fix a picture to it in your mind, you will lose it.

This is like pinning a butterfly: the husk is captured, but the flying is lost.

Why not be content with simply experiencing it?

--Attributed to Lao-tzu


#19 The Stalking Hyena

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 06:01 PM

View PostLazarus Benedict, on 08 October 2017 - 04:45 PM, said:

You mean when I began to be interested in the occult?

Sure. But it's just a point of reflection, really.
Ars est celare artem.

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http://stalkinghyena...rt.com/gallery/

#20 The Stalking Hyena

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 06:05 PM

View PostSilentSeeker, on 08 October 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

Pardon? Not quite sure how you mean that or why, care to enlighten me please sir?

It means you have been promoted.
Ars est celare artem.

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http://stalkinghyena...rt.com/gallery/





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