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Grades


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#1 yohannaurora

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 02:42 PM

Hi, I've got about a year's sporadic practice under my belt and now my tarot urges me to start work with higher rituals like supreme invoking ritual of the pentagram... does this make sense? Please reply I am completely confused

#2 yohannaurora

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 02:58 PM

also is there anyone who could help me understand what grade im in?

#3 wren

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 04:00 PM

A grade is just your "position" within a lodge. If you aren't in a lodge, you don't have a grade. Want a grade? Join a lodge.

As for the SIRP... you can do it. If you are worried about authority, then you haven't been paying attention. You aren't "authorized" to use any G.D. material without entering into a G.D. body. The authority ship sailed a year ago.

You should really think about why you want or need to to do the SIRP, though. "Because Tarot" isn't a good answer.

Edited by wren, 04 June 2017 - 04:01 PM.


#4 Spida

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 04:06 PM

View Postyohannaurora, on 04 June 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

also is there anyone who could help me understand what grade im in?

I'm guessing you're a Neopyhte. Which I believe would be 1 = 10. Meaning grade 1 corresponds to the 10th Sephirah(Malkuth). Attainment being at 10 = 1. Grade 10 corresponds to Kether. Completion of the great work.

#5 wren

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 04:18 PM

If you haven't had a neophyte initiation you aren't a neophyte. 'Neophyte' by itself doesn't mean anything. Neophyte in/of the H.O.G.D. or whatever has meaning. Even claiming the 0=0 probationer grade is sketchy if you aren't actually on a probational period with an order. That said, there's nothing stopping you from claiming Magister Templi right out of the gates if you feel like it, so long as you don't claim affiliation with an extant order. Like I said, the grade names don't mean anything outside of the order structures that confer them.

Edited by wren, 04 June 2017 - 04:20 PM.


#6 Spida

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 05:21 PM

View Postwren, on 04 June 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

If you haven't had a neophyte initiation you aren't a neophyte. 'Neophyte' by itself doesn't mean anything. Neophyte in/of the H.O.G.D. or whatever has meaning. Even claiming the 0=0 probationer grade is sketchy if you aren't actually on a probational period with an order. That said, there's nothing stopping you from claiming Magister Templi right out of the gates if you feel like it, so long as you don't claim affiliation with an extant order. Like I said, the grade names don't mean anything outside of the order structures that confer them.

Sorry Wren, I didn't see your comment until after I posted. I vaguely remembered seeing the grading system in Crowley's MITAP; a Golden Dawn thing. And I agree it doesn't have the same value outside of the Order, but perhaps comparitively speaking; I didn't recall the probationer grade. But even so, I'm a nice guy and would consider that too much of an insult.

#7 yohannaurora

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 05:28 PM

for example, i see my visualisations as slightly clear, how far along does this indicate?

#8 Imperial Arts

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 05:32 PM

View Postwren, on 04 June 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

If you haven't had a neophyte initiation you aren't a neophyte. 'Neophyte' by itself doesn't mean anything. Neophyte in/of the H.O.G.D. or whatever has meaning. Even claiming the 0=0 probationer grade is sketchy if you aren't actually on a probational period with an order. That said, there's nothing stopping you from claiming Magister Templi right out of the gates if you feel like it, so long as you don't claim affiliation with an extant order. Like I said, the grade names don't mean anything outside of the order structures that confer them.

I like to think that Aleister Crowley had a vision of his AA being something much more exalted than the reality of the AA any point. It is apparent that he placed very little confidence in his lackeys and girlfriends, and yet those were the only people who were really willing to put up with his insane guru schtick. So we are left to his writing, rather than his biography, in which the AA system is entirely independent of a lodge. You have your superior who introduced you, and your disciple... and that's it; but there is still a grade structure without a lodge. I also think that if you look at the broader picture of his work, there is a definite progression in which the stages may be called grades without any orders or other people involved at all.

The SIRP is just another variant of the other Golden Dawn style pentagram rituals, the main difference being the use of Enochian words, which were apparently terrifying to the GD crowd some 100 years ago. I would suggest that people interested in Enochian treat it as its own subject, and pursue it on its own terms, rather than use it as a veneer for Golden Dawn rituals.
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#9 wren

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 06:57 PM

Imperial Arts said:

So we are left to his writing, rather than his biography, in which the AA system is entirely independent of a lodge. You have your superior who introduced you, and your disciple... and that's it; but there is still a grade structure without a lodge. I also think that if you look at the broader picture of his work, there is a definite progression in which the stages may be called grades without any orders or other people involved at all. [/color]


Fair enough, a lodge space isn't necessary, but the A.A. is still a self-perpetuating social organization. It is like a lodge in the ways that I think are meaningful in this context.

As for Crowley's writings pointing towards something like "universal grades", yeah, I certainly see that theme. It's just a bit preposterous in my opinion. Even if there is something like that at play, it wouldn't translate well into signs or tokens of position in a specific order.

My point is that personal development is personal, while advancement in an organization is social. They can be completely different things. They can be related, but the don't have to be.

That's why I'm not trying to insult Yohan, even of it sounds harsh. I'm in the same position. Being an outsider or other doesn't have to be pejorative.

#10 Spida

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 07:20 PM

Wren said:
"As for Crowley's writings pointing towards something like 'universal grades', yeah, I certainly see that theme. It's just a bit preposterous in my opinion. Even if there is something like that at play, it wouldn't translate well into signs or tokens of position in a specific order."

It should be noted that the grading system is based on an external model which I would see as a Universal model - The Tree Of Life and the Ten Holy Sephiroth. Verification of grades may be an issue, but the Model itself does transcend Orders.

Edited by Spida, 04 June 2017 - 07:21 PM.


#11 Imperial Arts

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 07:31 PM

View PostSpida, on 04 June 2017 - 07:20 PM, said:


It should be noted that the grading system is based on an external model which I would see as a Universal model - The Tree Of Life and the Ten Holy Sephiroth. Verification of grades may be an issue, but the Model itself does transcend Orders.

That sounds well enough, but the application of the grades to the Tree of Life is something that appears in Golden Dawn and its spinoffs but rarely anywhere else.

The arrangement of the Tree itself in the way the GD teaches is itself only one variation that the GD adopted.

Some years ago, a friend suggested that in a true magical order, there would be only two grades: Neophyte and Badass. I appreciate his sentiments, but expect it would go better for everyone if we all just believed ourselves to be somewhere in between those two things and felt content about that.
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#12 Spida

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 01:57 PM

I know this will sound crazy, but I think that Ship sailed already anyways.

I was wondering after certain occurrences if a dedicated Practitioner would receive messages(unknown source) about status regarding the TOL. The reason I wondered this is because one morning my smoke detector went off for no apparent reason at exactly 5:55 AM. And then all day I saw the 555 number sequence. Of course I was currently involved with Tiphareth. Which ascending from Malkuth is similar to the grading system which would be 5.

I guess as usual it could be something or nothing.

Novice - Intermediate - Badass

You could test Occultists in the same way intelligence is tested, and those tests aren't super accurate either.

Edited by Spida, 05 June 2017 - 06:51 PM.


#13 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 02:10 PM

View Postyohannaurora, on 04 June 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

for example, i see my visualisations as slightly clear, how far along does this indicate?

There's no standard scale of progress in occult studies, so no one here can answer that for you. Here's a thing: craving external validation of your acumen is a natural human drive, but it may not be conducive to your actual development. Here's why: visualizations are personal, subjective things that can't be compared across individuals. "Slightly clear" almost certainly means different things to different people. And even more to the point, not everyone who practices magick relies on "visualization," so how clear ones visualizations might be is irrelevant to them.

As has already been pointed out to you, grades only come from specific social structures, which often enough is more about paying dues than it is about magical acumen. You've also already been told that if you're pursuing Golden Dawn magick outside of a Golden Dawn institution, you're missing the crucial events that confer the grades within those organizations: initiation. Let's talk about that for a moment. While opinions vary, traditionally, initiation is a magical event wherein the aspirant is put into direct contact with the living spirit of the organization (usually referred to as the Current), specifically and necessarily by someone who's not only in contact with it, but who has its consent to connect others to it. Today, there's a significant self initiation movement, and people have come to believe new, non-traditional things about initiation, such as: one can be initiated from a distance by following steps laid out in a book, or online, or a mail-order course.

Here's my advice about that. If your drive for external validation is overwhelming, you're ripe for abuse by charlatans, the online/mail-order kind and the up-close-and-personal kind. The bottom line is that if you're willing to pay someone to tell you how awesome you are, someone will surely come around to collect your money. Pay if you really need to hear it, but don't expect it to help you develop real magical power. If you do develop magick skills, it will be coincidental to the money you shell out, not because of it.

Generally speaking, the history of the Golden Dawn is marked by oath breaking, backstabbing, betrayal, petty public squabbles, major scandals, and lawsuits, and that's just among its founders and earliest initiates. The history after that doesn't get better. It's worth considering that maybe there's something wrong with the system.

Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 05 June 2017 - 02:11 PM.

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#14 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 02:45 PM

I've always believed that there are universal grades which correspond with the sephiroth on the Tree Of Life. Also as I've said in previous discussions about initiation, I've always believed you can receive initiations in dreams and meditations and sometimes self-initiate (though only in certain cases).

It might not be because you want to be validated as being awesome. It could be to do with attempting to make sense of experiences you have and events that happen by looking at diagrams and correspondences and plotting them on a Kabbalah glyph- It's a bit like plotting them on astrological charts and systems. Probably best not to keep talking about what you find out, in case it does turn into wanting validation as being awesome!

One thing has always bothered me. I believe different systems are equivalent, and yet people learn totally different things in them and don't know how to do what someone has learned in another one. I've always felt instinctively that a very compassionate nun would be equivalent to someone quite high up in another system, but of course she would not have learned how to do the same techniques. Despite this discrepancy I don't feel like abandoning my belief in this.
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#15 violetstar

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Posted 14 June 2017 - 10:38 AM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 05 June 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

There's no standard scale of progress in occult studies, so no one here can answer that for you. Here's a thing: craving external validation of your acumen is a natural human drive, but it may not be conducive to your actual development. Here's why: visualizations are personal, subjective things that can't be compared across individuals. "Slightly clear" almost certainly means different things to different people. And even more to the point, not everyone who practices magick relies on "visualization," so how clear ones visualizations might be is irrelevant to them.

As has already been pointed out to you, grades only come from specific social structures, which often enough is more about paying dues than it is about magical acumen. You've also already been told that if you're pursuing Golden Dawn magick outside of a Golden Dawn institution, you're missing the crucial events that confer the grades within those organizations: initiation. Let's talk about that for a moment. While opinions vary, traditionally, initiation is a magical event wherein the aspirant is put into direct contact with the living spirit of the organization (usually referred to as the Current), specifically and necessarily by someone who's not only in contact with it, but who has its consent to connect others to it. Today, there's a significant self initiation movement, and people have come to believe new, non-traditional things about initiation, such as: one can be initiated from a distance by following steps laid out in a book, or online, or a mail-order course.

Here's my advice about that. If your drive for external validation is overwhelming, you're ripe for abuse by charlatans, the online/mail-order kind and the up-close-and-personal kind. The bottom line is that if you're willing to pay someone to tell you how awesome you are, someone will surely come around to collect your money. Pay if you really need to hear it, but don't expect it to help you develop real magical power. If you do develop magick skills, it will be coincidental to the money you shell out, not because of it.

Generally speaking, the history of the Golden Dawn is marked by oath breaking, backstabbing, betrayal, petty public squabbles, major scandals, and lawsuits, and that's just among its founders and earliest initiates. The history after that doesn't get better. It's worth considering that maybe there's something wrong with the system.
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#16 KaptainKaos

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 04:27 PM

Hi! KaptainKaos here. Something on the side just to think about in general. Please, not to be confused with overriding perspective and/or forced induction into some sort of school of thought. This is merely something, to think about. No more, no less.

As for the question of "What 'Grade' am I in?" Well, to me, personally, I think you are in the same 'grade' as all of us. You are in the stage of awakening. At least, if you are part of anything that includes more opinions/directions/guidelines on "what" is happening than only your own perspective on things - you are generally in a grade of awakening to a higher truth. Consider, that all systematic positions in all things human, are all deliberate constructs of a specific "thoughtform" that is brought into physical reality. Now, what we generally follow by human standards, are "laws", which is really just some person's way of directing the ebb and flow of things. But, honest truth? We are all in the very same, cosmic "grade" of self exploration and challenge. If you want, you can view this entire experience, as just another year at school. The only difference is, this "school", is never ending. There are always more grades upward, as much as there are grades downward (if we can even use the terminology and polarity view of what is 'UP' and 'DOWN'.)

So, what we do here, yes, it does matter, like all things matter. (Mind, over matter. Because, if you don't MIND, it doesn't MATTER) Yes, there is a certain system at work here. If you MIND something (action) it starts to somehow integrate itself into your experience and it MATTERs (reaction) this is the universe, and you. This is all there is. And then, there is also, the universe and me. The universe and Joe, universe and Sara, universe and, whoever else. (Everybody IS included). This, is a rather strange, and HUGE concept. But, if you could, try and understand your place, in yourself. Because you are as much the universe, as the universe is you and Joe, and Sara, and whoever. So, your "grade", is quite literally, the effect of your current experience, within the current cycle of existence we all, currently find ourselves in. We are all, souls/spirits/immortals/consciousness/the universe, living, a human experience. Tomorrow, we might even live insectoid experiences, or planetary experiences, or even galactical experiences.

The point being really, currently, everyone on this same wavelength, this same joyride, this very same ebb and flow of situational experience, is in the very same grade, of experience. You are doing well, since you are still having the experience. You are doing extremely well, if you understand the experience and you are doing exceptionally well, if you can alternate the frequency of the experience at will. This, is the true difference. But as for "grade", well - We're it! :D

Have fun, and hope to hear from you!

KaptainKaos

Edited by KaptainKaos, 19 June 2017 - 04:34 PM.






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