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Are Hebrew Based Grimoires Useless In The West?


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#1 violetstar

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 12:41 PM

Are the Grimoires,specifically the goetic types useless outside of Hebrew thought?Does Yahweh have any power outside of Israel?The Bible suggests not.Therefore if true,the endless lists of Angels and Demons populating these books are meaningless,possibly even invented and impossible to connect to or employ.

Consider the story of Egypt.Why could Yahweh not simply destroy Pharaoh himself but had to send in Moses and Aaron to hand out punishment?The answer may be that Yahweh was originally a tutelary god of a small nomadic community in the desert regions.Later he developed into the national God of Israel.He therefore had no jurisdiction in Egypt.

The Biblical statement made by Yahweh is supported in tomb inscriptions and carvings confirming 'I am the God of Israel'.Outside of Isaiah who employs an assumption Yahweh ordained the Babylonian attack on Judah making him known outside of Israel,there is no notion of Yahweh holding jurisdiction outside of Israel or of being the Universal Supreme God.

If Yahweh has power limited to Israel,how then do his Angels and the Demons opposing them hold greater power?In other words what use are the Grimoires whose instruction is to employ Yahweh through his Names in order to connect to or command spirits if
I.We are not Jews.2.We are speaking magically in a language we do not fully comprehend..3.We are outside of Yahweh's limited area of power which also renders the spirits he commands as invalid.
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#2 Imperial Arts

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 01:55 PM

To answer directly, no, the grimoires are not "useless outside of Hebrew thought."

Some things to keep in mind:

"Hebrew thought" encompasses a much larger set of origins than Moses, and even the Old Testament bears a number of different perspectives on how the whole monotheism thing works. The grimoires incorporate several elements that owe little to Judaism but have more in common with Greek thought as well as other imports.

Monotheism, which is at the heart of the religions of Abraham, tends toward the idea that there is only one God, rather than one distinguished above others who might be contenders. The grimoires also operate along this line of reasoning, and the fundamental virtue of faith in God is promoted as central to the work. Despite such insistence, faith in God is usually the first thing to be discarded by those investigating the grimoires, especially among those who approach the grimoires after becoming disaffected with conventional religion.

The grimoires being patchworks of several cultures, it is out of line to say that they support anything like the cultural supremacy of the Bible. To say that God is supreme is not like saying Judaism or Catholicism is supreme, which clearly they are not. We might step outside the catbox of religion and make a comparison to the ways in which people fight to "rule the earth" and yet the universe is independent to the whims of mankind and far greater.
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#3 violetstar

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 02:44 PM

Thank you for your thoughts.The Grimoires are reliant upon the superiority of Yahweh over the demons drawn from Hebrew thought,its eschatology and the overall authority of the OT.The other input is Greek and Roman and we find it with the inclusion of Jesus added to the magical liturgy using Latin to give a sense of authenticity.Probably why some scholars believe interference of the Grimoires by the Catholic Church.

As you say,patchworks of many cultures.This in fact appears to add even greater difficulty and contradiction.Fundamental faith in one God-then can we dispense with the Names considering they are contradictory in each culture?And the spirits,are they cross-cultural or interchangeable?

' ..in the name IH IEHOVAH and by the power and dignity of these three names, TETRAGRAMMATON, ANAPHAXETON, PRIMEUMATON, I do cast thee, O thou wicked and disobedient Spirit..' Lesser Key of Solomon

How does this imply a simple faith in God outside of Judaism?
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#4 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 03:32 PM

View Postvioletstar, on 06 April 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

' ..in the name IH IEHOVAH and by the power and dignity of these three names, TETRAGRAMMATON, ANAPHAXETON, PRIMEUMATON, I do cast thee, O thou wicked and disobedient Spirit..' Lesser Key of Solomon

How does this imply a simple faith in God outside of Judaism?

It doesn't, but it's not fair to cherrypick a single sentence to justify any given interpretation.

Clues to how people regard this literature today can be inferred from the application of any multi-generational sacred text. Various interpretations and methodologies evolve into multiple denominations. The reason we don't see literal Goetic denominations today is because too few people are using the literature and there hasn't been enough time; take your pick. The reality is that people who don't like a given interpretation can ignore any textual or historical implications in favor of their personal sensibilities.

There's another important factor to take into account, the most significant factor in my opinion: developing a practice from these texts, however one goes about it, if successful results in spirits telling the practitioner what's what. Taking the history of modern claims in occult discussion forums at face value suggest that the specific interpretation of the text is less important than the time and effort put in. It's inevitable that sooner or later, what the spirits say will have an impact on the practitioner's attitudes. That there are yet varying attitudes says something important to me.
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#5 violetstar

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 03:46 PM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 07 April 2017 - 03:32 PM, said:

It doesn't, but it's not fair to cherrypick a single sentence to justify any given interpretation.

Clues to how people regard this literature today can be inferred from the application of any multi-generational sacred text. Various interpretations and methodologies evolve into multiple denominations. The reason we don't see literal Goetic denominations today is because too few people are using the literature and there hasn't been enough time; take your pick. The reality is that people who don't like a given interpretation can ignore any textual or historical implications in favor of their personal sensibilities.

There's another important factor to take into account, the most significant factor in my opinion: developing a practice from these texts, however one goes about it, if successful results in spirits telling the practitioner what's what. Taking the history of modern claims in occult discussion forums at face value suggest that the specific interpretation of the text is less important than the time and effort put in. It's inevitable that sooner or later, what the spirits say will have an impact on the practitioner's attitudes. That there are yet varying attitudes says something important to me.
Yes I agree.It is not so much the actual names or even liturgy but the Will and Intent which supersede interpretation.If the practioner can rely upon the advice given from the spirits then yes,this should be followed.My original point was to question the limitations imposed by strict adherence to the Grimoires instructions.I know that does not apply to you but its the norm for beginners(and dabblers)
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#6 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 04:17 PM

View Postvioletstar, on 07 April 2017 - 03:46 PM, said:

Yes I agree.It is not so much the actual names or even liturgy but the Will and Intent which supersede interpretation.

That's not the tenor of what I intended to express. I was referring to the human capacity to see what they want to see regardless of what's actually there.

View Postvioletstar, on 07 April 2017 - 03:46 PM, said:

If the practioner can rely upon the advice given from the spirits then yes,this should be followed.

That's also not consistent with what I tried to express. There I was implicating the human capacity to be gullible.

View Postvioletstar, on 07 April 2017 - 03:46 PM, said:

My original point was to question the limitations imposed by strict adherence to the Grimoires instructions.I know that does not apply to you but its the norm for beginners(and dabblers)

My point was that the text itself doesn't limit anyone in anywise. The literature is too scant to have a strict adherence. The literal gaps have to be filled in to formulate a real practice. That's most likely the linchpin, the heart of the matter.
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#7 violetstar

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 04:48 PM

But the texts are rigidly adhered to by the novice.It does limt therefore as the Names of both God and the spirits concerned are themselves limited to Judaic theology.

I argue that Yahweh has no jurisdiction outside of that belief system and the Grimoires using it cannot be succesfully deployed by non-Jewish practitioners.In attempt to address this we find the inclusion of Jesus(for the Christian)or Greek and Latin for the Hellenistic and Roman audiences.
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#8 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 05:26 PM

View Postvioletstar, on 07 April 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

But the texts are rigidly adhered to by the novice.It does limt therefore as the Names of both God and the spirits concerned are themselves limited to Judaic theology.

You're mistaken about that. No novice today works in a Goetic vacuum free of other sources of information. People seek outside sources to help them understand the literature, and to fill in the gaps. Naturally, they take cues from those other sources: Crowley, Runyon, DMK, random people on the internet, etc. Having diverse opinion to draw from, most people will take up the ideas that are consistent with how they already feel. Their attitudes might change with experience, but that's how people start in on it these days.

View Postvioletstar, on 07 April 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

I argue that Yahweh has no jurisdiction outside of that belief system and the Grimoires using it cannot be succesfully deployed by non-Jewish practitioners.In attempt to address this we find the inclusion of Jesus(for the Christian)or Greek and Latin for the Hellenistic and Roman audiences.

Lots of people use the literature and claim success with it who don't buy into that idea at all. Are they all mistaken? Lying? How do you reconcile their claims in your mind?
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#9 violetstar

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 05:48 PM

I'm not mistaken in Britain,perhaps in the USA its different.For example I have a friend who runs a small shop offering various items connected to New Age ideas.She has told me that several people have enquired if she sold herbs,knives,wands that they had believed they needed to work various Grimoires.To me that sounds are being rigidly adhered to.

I think lying is too strong a word,self deception or wishful thinking are more likely.As Chumbley said 'If it works for you then who can denounce it?'.However,he also added '..even if the effects are subjective.temporary and non-transforming '
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#10 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 05:54 PM

View Postvioletstar, on 07 April 2017 - 05:48 PM, said:

I think lying is too strong a word,self deception or wishful thinking are more likely.As Chumbley said 'If it works for you then who can denounce it?'.However,he also added '..even if the effects are subjective.temporary and non-transforming '

I was primarily referring to Crowley, Runyon, and DMK.

That people seek items from the texts at occult shops is a remarkably trivial thing that says nothing at all about how one regards the Hebrew names in the texts.

Is this an art you practice yourself?

Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 07 April 2017 - 05:55 PM.

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#11 Spida

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 06:40 PM

VioletStar said:

Are the Grimoires,specifically the goetic types useless outside of Hebrew thought?Does Yahweh have any power outside of Israel?The Bible suggests not.Therefore if true,the endless lists of Angels and Demons populating these books are meaningless,possibly even invented and impossible to connect to or employ.

This does bring up a concern I have. At least as far as it relates to Angels at the moment. I have no doubt in the existence of Archanges, and Angels. For they are the germinating seed of God, and it's further development, respectively. But how accurate are the names given to these Entities? It's seems fairly relevant since great care is given(on my part)in correctly formulating the Vibrations; putting a considerable amount of Ritual time into this. But I do wonder at times, the validity of these names.

When I am in a good state of mind for Ritual, most often an altered state. I don't worry about the accuracy of Names. And I do see the results of my work. So at present it's just status quo. So for me I can see it as, okay, perhaps the Names may be precarious. But what the Names represent are not.

Sometimes I will assign my own names to God. I have called God the Eternal Catalyst, the Fractal Architect(creative aspect), et cetera.

A quote by Hermes Trismegistus:

"O Tat my Son, do not get too caught up in the Names of things"

Although it's rather unavoidable where Practice is concerned, but life goes on, as do the Rituals.

I can consider this negligible(and must) when all the other positive Ritual factors are taken into account.

Cheers

#12 Spida

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 07:02 PM

Mr. Laughlin reminded me of something as well.

I have contemplated the numerous names of power, periodically at length. And I do believe that the results I have obtained for proper formulation of these vibrations during Rituals was given to me at various times by Entities further up in the Hierarchy than I. Whether or not it was the Angels, I can't say for sure.

#13 violetstar

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 07:40 PM

View PostSpida, on 07 April 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

VioletStar said:

Are the Grimoires,specifically the goetic types useless outside of Hebrew thought?Does Yahweh have any power outside of Israel?The Bible suggests not.Therefore if true,the endless lists of Angels and Demons populating these books are meaningless,possibly even invented and impossible to connect to or employ.

This does bring up a concern I have. At least as far as it relates to Angels at the moment. I have no doubt in the existence of Archanges, and Angels. For they are the germinating seed of God, and it's further development, respectively. But how accurate are the names given to these Entities? It's seems fairly relevant since great care is given(on my part)in correctly formulating the Vibrations; putting a considerable amount of Ritual time into this. But I do wonder at times, the validity of these names.

When I am in a good state of mind for Ritual, most often an altered state. I don't worry about the accuracy of Names. And I do see the results of my work. So at present it's just status quo. So for me I can see it as, okay, perhaps the Names may be precarious. But what the Names represent are not.

Sometimes I will assign my own names to God. I have called God the Eternal Catalyst, the Fractal Architect(creative aspect), et cetera.

A quote by Hermes Trismegistus:

"O Tat my Son, do not get too caught up in the Names of things"

Although it's rather unavoidable where Practice is concerned, but life goes on, as do the Rituals.

I can consider this negligible(and must) when all the other positive Ritual factors are taken into account.

Cheers
As you say 'But I do wonder at times, the validity of these names.' and ' But how accurate are the names given to these Entities? It's seems fairly relevant since great care is given(on my part)in correctly formulating the Vibrations; putting a considerable amount of Ritual time into this.'Then you quote Hermes T: 'do not get too caught up in the Names of things' But this advice you see as negligible.

What if I were to tell you that the Names you have expended time on learning to vibrate may not be Hebrew at all but from another tongue.paraded as Hebrew but pronounced in a way unfamiliar to you?Will you then stand by your statement that 'perhaps the Names may be precarious. But what the Names represent are not.'?

How can you know if what the Names represent are precarious or not when you cannot always know what they represent at all?In that you do greatly err.

Edited by violetstar, 07 April 2017 - 07:45 PM.

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#14 Spida

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 08:01 PM

VioletStar said:

How can you know if what the Names represent are precarious or not when you cannot always know what they represent at all?In that you do greatly err.

Because I have spent a great deal of time contemplating/meditating on Existence. And I have arrived at the belief in a God; I do not have a need to believe. I let go of that, and God still remains.

If Crowley says to me that God is the Seed, the Archangels it's development, so on and so forth. And I meditate on that; feel it to be right. Then as far as I am concerned it is right.

You may never receive absolute proof, and don't need it anyways. Furthermore, I would not consider my beliefs faith based. I have use logic and reasoning until it was no longer valid, and continued the thought processes without it, after going in circles for a bit.

Cheers

#15 Spida

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 11:51 PM

I know the focus is Hebrew based Grimoires, and authenticity. But If I may use an alternate example.

Not all Rituals are based in primarily subjective contexts. If you take a Ritual of the Sun for example. This is undeniably objective, although these days some will even argue that. Even if you are unsure that Ra is the best choice for a name of power. Or you may question whether the Sun is animated by a higher power or not, you still have something at least that is one hundred percent objective to work with. And speaking for myself I have gotten some very powerful interactions with these types of Rituals. But the same also goes for Rituals that are highly subjective.

Also to mention that I use an active representation of this Heavenly Body during Rituals, a large display to load up videos. I will use this method for other Spheres when the time comes.

I myself would have more trouble establishing belief in a Goetic type Ritual. But the appropriate altered state would remedy that.

I think if you are performing the Rituals properly, and they are valid. Then the work will manifest itself over time, sometimes in bizarre unexpected ways.

This aspect of doubt also can make one feel silly at times for what they are doing, which I have experienced occasionally. More at first; it dissipates over time. And not because I am losing my mind(maybe a little)but because I am being consistent and seeing the results.

Edited by Spida, 07 April 2017 - 11:56 PM.


#16 Spida

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 09:59 AM

So now let me move my focus back to the arena of Sacred Hebrew Texts, as Mr. Laughlin made a partial reference to.

I have a few of these texts, although I'm apparently too busy with other Occult aspects to know them well. One that is begging for a reference to is the Sepher Yetzirah. I would like to share my thoughts on how some Divine knowledge is acquired, which forms a basis for my belief in it. Which is also subjective but at the same time very robust as I see it.

My thoughts are that this text(Sepher Yetzirah) is derived from an order of Beings above us in the Hierarchy. Given the name of the text, this is an indication of the Qabalistic world of Yetzirah, World of Angels, and I'm not talking about winged beings either, but of splendor. This World is located in the middle of the Tree of Life, Tiphareth in the center surrounded by six Holy Spheres.

The Angels are the next order of beings above us in the hierarchy, and I assume this is where most sacred knowledge is derived. Going out on a limb here but It wouldn't surprise me if the Hexagram, and even the Pentagram were modeled after the arrangement of these Holy Spheres where Divine knowledge is attained from.

So I myself do have belief in this sacred wisdom, and being involved with Qabalah can see how it fits together to a degree. Just pieces of a puzzle coming together over time; and anxious at times to keep piecing it together, and seeing my own results being derived from this Qabalistic world of Angels. And also using extrapolation to a large extent where needed.

I myself have spent years contemplating existence, and all that goes with it. So these sacred texts just reaffirm what I already believed, and augment it. So I have my ideology being fortified from a few different angles here. So subjectivity, where objectivity is lacking, is fortified by redundancy,

Cheers

#17 Spida

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 10:11 AM

I'm only speaking for a limited set of ancient Hebrew texts, but the ones I speak of are globally valid. It's just the process in how some sacred divine knowledge is obtained. It is only given to a select group, or individual. Then it is passed down. Sometimes it is written, or it may be an oral tradition of mouth to ear. Being of an extreme esoteric nature.

And even if I am not privy to certain knowledge, I will acquire it myself in the same manner; I have, actually. Well, maybe not exactly the same manner. Generally speaking.

Cheers
:)

Edited by Spida, 08 April 2017 - 10:18 AM.


#18 Spida

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 10:40 AM

I was just also thinking of my current Ritual and how it relates to the Sepher Yetzirah.

Sepher Yetzirah(this): The Hexagram, the Sun(Tiphareth) in the Center, surrounded by Six Holy Spheres. The Kindom of Yetzirah. This Kingdom is representative of seventy percent of the TOL, roughly.

My current Ritual: See above ^^ although technically I'm in Beriah, which is just prior phase of Cosmic anabolism, or thought of as Yetzirah(Seven Sephiroth) in a prior density. Yetzirah exists in Beriah, but is more fluid, If I may put it that way.

Edited by Spida, 08 April 2017 - 07:52 PM.


#19 violetstar

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 11:31 AM

שכל נסיוני ... Welcome to the 25th Spida!
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#20 Imperial Arts

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 08:19 PM

View Postvioletstar, on 06 April 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

can we dispense with the Names considering they are contradictory in each culture?And the spirits,are they cross-cultural or interchangeable?

Speaking specifically of The Goetia, the spirits are obviously and intentionally representative of the gods of other pantheons and pagan figures from the Bible. This is a subject often discussed in reference to those specific spirits. You have Baal and Astarte, Amon, Horus, Adares, Phoroneus, Pharphar, Romulus, the Chimaera, Balak and Balaam, even Nibiru listed among the Monster Manual that is the catalogue of the Brazen Vessel.

Take Baal, for example, the very first spirit. Baal ("Lord") is more of a position than an actual name, and it was applied to numerous deities, but all have one feature in common: they represent the divine as an exalted form of humanity. Baal, by whatever other title, represents the idea that God is like a human. He may be like Baal Zebub, Baal Zaphon, or Baal Hadad... all are more or less identical with Thundering Zeus, and the Assyrians called him Rapiu or Pidar, and to the Japanese his is merely Susano as rain is not such a big deal for them as it was for the Assyrians.

These are all like clothing that fits over the nebulous intelligence which represents itself (for us humans) as the fallacious idea that the Universe has human sympathies and needs, human prejudices, and is in most respects like an old and powerful man on a misty throne somewhere up in the sky. That being, the spirit behind all these exalted images of mankind, is not actually God but rather it represents a human desire to impose our own rules on the way everything else works.

In our own culture, this idea of The Exalted Man as the center of our existence has manifested most demonstrably in the development of technology. We just keep pumping out the coal fumes and to hell with any damage that it might cause because we're human and it's our self-given right to do as we please. Moral relativism, force majeure, and plenty of other traits of Baal appear in most human cultures as statements of pride in our supposedly vast accomplishments. As grand as they might appear, it doesn't make them God-like.

The power of Baal, in the Goetia, is the opposite of exaltation: invisibility, which takes the form of stealth (as a cat), hiding (as a toad), or inconspicuousness (as a man). Fans of Plato and Tolkien will probably recognize that invisibility is usually part of a plan to act badly with impunity. We can do something and get away with it, so if it doesn't make it right, at least the fact that it is wrong does not really matter. Placing Baal in this list of demons doesn't necessarily mean that Baal is some terrifying infernal monster waiting to eat your soul, but it does imply that treating Baal as God can allow your personal motives, or those of your culture, to become subject to dysfunctional and degenerative processes.

It is that underlying "spirit" which is invoked in the Goetia ceremony, not some moldy Bablyonian god.

View Postvioletstar, on 06 April 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

' ..in the name IH IEHOVAH and by the power and dignity of these three names, TETRAGRAMMATON, ANAPHAXETON, PRIMEUMATON, I do cast thee, O thou wicked and disobedient Spirit..' Lesser Key of Solomon

How does this imply a simple faith in God outside of Judaism?

The Triangle in the Goetia is bordered by those names, hence their appearance in the conjurations. At the center of the Triangle is the question "Who is Like God?" which also happens to be the name of the archangel, Michael. We can be reasonably sure that we are not God: we did not create the Universe, we do not rule it, and we will not put it to Final Judgment in our own good time. We know this implicitly, and so do the spirits. We humans might be willing to preach about Baal or Amon in such a position, but the spirit itself has an intelligence and is just as aware as we are that it is not omnipotent.

With this in mind, the ceremony proceeds as a court summons. Acknowledging that neither we, nor the spirits, are God, we are able to make covenants with them to which both parties may be held mutually accountable. The spirit is "placed" in the Triangle as if it were a witness stand, with ANPh-ASh (fiery wrath) of God on one side, and PRI-MOM (reward bestowed) by God on the other, and the magician identifies God as YHVH, the Tetragrammaton: the supreme Creator, Ruler, and Judge.

Judaism is not really involved in that process, nor Christianity or any other religion. It is a monotheistic approach, though, and that is compatible with any of the Abraham religions but it isn't really part of them and certainly doesn't require them.

Edited by Imperial Arts, 08 April 2017 - 08:20 PM.

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