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Magical Energy


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#1 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 02:01 PM

This came up in another thread but in a digression from it's theme, so I moved it here.

View PostImperial Arts, on 16 March 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

1) The people who rely on the "energy" concept as a part of their occult practice, from the guy who points at his teacher and visualizes beams of hateful light all the way up to the Tai Chi grandmaster, are mistaken. I do not believe that these people are raising, moving, directing, or having anything to do with any kind of energy beyond those that other people use in the course of their ordinary actions.

I recall you saying at some time or other that you practiced the LBRP for several years. I did that too, among many other related things. For me ritual magick of that nature is a deeply sensory experience, and the language of magical energy is the best I have for discussing it. When I do the Cab Cross, it's as if I'm an empty vessel that's filled with a vibrant, tangible energy. When I draw in breath in preparation for vibrating a god-name, it's similar, I'm filled with sensations that are unique to the god-name I'm about to vibrate. And when I do vibrate the name, I feel it, whatever one calls it, rumbling through my being, up into my shoulders, down my arms, and out my hands. Interestingly, I continue to feel it, seemingly out into infinite space. After some years of daily practice, I learned that the sensations are not dependent on vocalizing the name, or any other physical activity. Even now (just checked), running the ritual in my mind prompts the same sensations, though admittedly not as intense as when I rehearsed it every day.

My descriptions of the MPR are, as anyone who knows what it's supposed to do could guess, even more flush with descriptions of intense sensory experience of a similar nature. I have theorized about the value of those sensations in magick practice, but I'll leave that aside for now. I'm deeply curious about your experience of the same practices.

How do my descriptions of doing those rituals square with your experience of performing them routinely?

Note that while I'm particularly interested in IA's responses, everyone's welcome to comment and share.
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#2 Imperial Arts

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 03:07 AM

I can think of Thanksgiving dinner and taste the food in my thoughts, but it doesn't produce food. Maybe thinking of cranberry sauce while making a Sign will produce cranberries, but the inner sense of dinner doesn't magically bring food to the plate.

I think of "magical energy" as a sort of paradigm or model of how magic works. The Tai Chi people extend their Magical Engergy paradigm to encompass pretty much everything the Western religions have in terms of its universal application and its relation to everything from health and luck to morals. In this context I am strictly speaking about attempting to use magical energy for something magical, not anything about the relation of chi to morality or the aura to diet or whatever. The idea in the energy paradigm is simple: there exists a magical energy, from some source, which can be activated and then directed for some purpose.

There has been no compelling case for the existence of such directed energies, and the subject is thoroughly wrapped in a shroud of fraud. I contend that the entire energy field, directions of energy, visualized forms of energy and that raised by remembering sensory experiences or whatever, that they are all simply conventions of thought. You want to change something, so you direct energy toward it. There is no energy, it's just your way of expressing your will in regard to the thing you intend to direct it toward.

You are no doubt aware that this energy paradigm is, in one form or another, a massive part of magic in the New Age, so this sounds completely bonkers to most occultists when I suggest that there is no genuine invisible magical energy. That tingling feeling you get during your ritual is just one of the many ways in which you relate to the rite, its meanings and uses. I didn't ever discover any sort of tingling energy sensation beyond that of the natural tendencies of breathing, muscle tension, and circulation.

In my opinion, the drawing of the stars, the invocation and visualization, all the inner processes follow the outer movements around the circle, and are only to make a representation of the will of the magician. Some other agency answers that will as if called out loud, or ignores it outright, vibrating flaming pentacles or no.

Edited by Imperial Arts, 17 March 2017 - 03:11 AM.

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#3 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:06 AM

I've always been sorry that I'm not energy-sensitive as much as many other occultists, and I see it as a psychic faculty that is more passive than active in which you feel what is going on rather than 'sending out' energy. Last year I gave a talk about chaos magic to a small group of Pagans and one lady said, "I love playing around with chaos energies. They feel so lively and vibrant." I felt that she had an advantage of being able to feel what she is doing, but not necessarily that it's the energy she is doing it with.

I think everyone can feel atmospheres a bit, as in "there was a quarrel and you could cut the atmosphere with a knife." Sometimes I've felt a very dark energy when meeting an entity for the first time, such as Ellis, and still carried on working with them. I'm not sure that is sensible of me but it shows there is such as a thing as energy, and maybe I can feel it more than I think I can.
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#4 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 01:30 PM

View PostImperial Arts, on 17 March 2017 - 03:07 AM, said:

I can think of Thanksgiving dinner and taste the food in my thoughts, but it doesn't produce food. Maybe thinking of cranberry sauce while making a Sign will produce cranberries, but the inner sense of dinner doesn't magically bring food to the plate.

The experience of magick energy that I described isn't a memory; I use my memory plenty enough to know the difference. It's a live sensory phenomenon that in my experience is to some degree unique to certain ritual magick activity, though I suspect it's based on a more general perceptual skill (more on that later if there's interest). For now, that having the experience doesn't automatically cause violations of the presumed laws of physics is entirely irrelevant to what I asked about. I'm not making claims about what having the experience means, whether it's important, or what it can/can't do. I just described my experience and asked if your experience was consistent with it.

You seem to have an answer below though; I appreciate that. To the point then...

View PostImperial Arts, on 17 March 2017 - 03:07 AM, said:

...I didn't ever discover any sort of tingling energy sensation beyond that of the natural tendencies of breathing, muscle tension, and circulation.

"Tingling" isn't an apt description of what I experience during ritual magick either. I described it as best I could in the first post to the thread. Furthermore, I breathe, tense muscles, and circulate all the time, plenty enough to know that what I'm talking about is something very different. I believe you when you say that you don't feel anything unique happening when you performed rituals like the LBRP, but your experience may not be typical. Mine may not be typical either. From my experience of teaching ritual magick to others, I have a sense that there are individual differences in this regard, particularly early on. Most, though not everyone, appears to develop greater sensory acuity with continued practice.

If other readers of the thread have practiced rituals like the LBRP, I'm interested to hear about your experience with it in this particular regard. Do you feel anything like what I described in the first post? Were there changes in your experience with continued practice? Also, did your routine include an exercise like the MPR? Please contribute if you have relevant experience.
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#5 Imperial Arts

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 01:46 PM

Like I said, I never have felt a vibrating energy in doing the pentagram rituals. I think people get different kinds of experiences from those rituals, with different senses becoming activated depending on their personal proclivities. I am not a fan of the Middle Pillar as such, but instead adopted a kind of chakra meditation with more or less the same objective and technique. More than either of these, my experience of "magical energy" comes from breathing exercises in connection with the Aquae Contemplationis, and even then I admit the effects did not move beyond what the body can produce. I felt noticeable differences in circulation, warmth, muscle tension, other normal bodily functions doing slightly different things, but had no reason to suppose I had somehow tapped into The Force.
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#6 wren

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 01:47 PM

I did the LBRP for a while in the beginning. My sensations orbited the Q-cross, and never really went down the arms. I was also doing the MPR at the time. The sensations increased with practice, but so did the gut feeling that something was wrong. Eventually, I gave up to the intuition that GD magic wasn't for me and stopped practicing.

Edited by wren, 17 March 2017 - 01:48 PM.


#7 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 03:14 PM

I have only ever felt a sense of inner peace and purity with the LBRP and the Middle Pillar- no energy sensations. Some people say they feel all kinds of things, like sensations to do with the four elements, but I don't.
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#8 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 04:20 PM

View Postwren, on 17 March 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

I did the LBRP for a while in the beginning. My sensations orbited the Q-cross, and never really went down the arms. I was also doing the MPR at the time. The sensations increased with practice, but so did the gut feeling that something was wrong. Eventually, I gave up to the intuition that GD magic wasn't for me and stopped practicing.

You're in the vast majority of GD-dabblers, on giving it up before too long.

This discussion doesn't have to be about GD-specific practices. The only reason I started with the LBRP is because I recalled IA claiming he practiced it for several years, I also practiced that ritual for several years. It saw it as an opportunity to juxtapose our different experiences stemming from the same sequence of actions (nominally the same at least): I experience a phenomenon strongly that IA doesn't experience at all. That's interesting and it's not limited to he and I. I wonder what it's about. There are probably many possibilities, but the main questions that interest me are:

1) Are people who experience things more the way I do imagining something that isn't real?
2) Do people who experience things more the way IA does lack the perceptual acuity to notice what the others feel?

The experience of magick energy is found in many places across the OS spectrum, as IA pointed out and we all know well enough because we're OS people. The core issue I'm interested in discussing at the outset is about how who does and who doesn't experience such feelings. For those who don't feel these sensations, I'm interested in how they train and what they do. Maybe that's where important differences can be identified. For those who do feel it, I'm interested in descriptions of the physical sensations themselves and then their subsequent discussions of how they train and what they do. It doesn't have to be the LBRP, etc. It can be anything people do that is supposed to foster feelings of magical energy.

Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 18 March 2017 - 04:08 AM.

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#9 Spida

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 01:40 PM

It appears as though the word "Energy" has become quite ambiguous in meaning. Just like "God" has. Visualization of light does not explicitly create energy. or visualization of anything for that matter, although it possibly can create radiation of Energy, by increasing electrical movement in the Brain.

When I talk about "Energy". I am talking about Photonic Energy. I am talking about Electric, and Magnetic Fields that radiate this Energy and propagate it spatially.

Since the Brain is an electrical device, it may be quite capable of doing this.

We can manipulate subtle matter(Electricity) in the Brain merely by thought process. This is Spirit affecting matter in the most tenuous context.

So I only refer to the Electromagnetic Spectrum form of Energy. Although anything composed of Bosons would be Energy.

Edit:

It is true that Mr. Laughlin is making a distinction by referring to it as "Magickal Energy". Or simply saying "it" i.e. it conforms to Energy in some way, but I really can't say precisely.

So maybe you could have a couple categories of Energy for starters; there would be Photonic Energy, and then the catch all remaining would be other forms of Bosonic Energy. In which Magickal Energy could be placed, also Spiritual Energy. These could have a further underlying principle which unifies them, so that they are very similar in reality, and Identical in the core mechanism.

Edited by Spida, 18 March 2017 - 03:25 PM.


#10 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 03:23 PM

View PostSpida, on 18 March 2017 - 01:40 PM, said:

It appears as though the word "Energy" has become quite ambiguous in meaning. Just like "God" has. Visualization of light does not explicitly create energy. or visualization of anything for that matter, although it possibly can create radiation of Energy, by increasing electrical movement in the Brain.

Some people assume that "chi" or magical energy by any other name is a subtle form of physical energy that, so far, can't be measured with technology, but someday will be measurable. Not everyone thinks that way about it, however. It's not uncommon for people who experience what I'm talking about in this thread to assume that what they feel is real, without necessarily assuming that it's a form of physical energy. Rather, their interpretation of magical energy is consistent with the way they think about the nature of spirits and souls. Such things can be assumed to be real but part of a non-material, occult world by various names: spirit world, the astral plane, etc. Many people who operate from a basic spirit model presume that the occult (non-physical) world is the real foundation of the material world; it's common enough for folks with that perspective to go the extra step to assume that the non-material world is the reality and the material world is illusory.

On the surface, holding forth a spirit model while rejecting the idea of magical energy out of hand seems a bit ironic to me. That seems to be your orientation, IA. You've suggested that you reject the magical energy idea because you haven't experienced anything that's consistent with it. I'm interested to know what kind of experiences you have that supports your beliefs about spirit entities.

Again, while that question is directed to IA, I'm interested in hearing from anyone with an opinion about these things.
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#11 Spida

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 03:42 PM

With regard to the "Chi Energy". I see this as an enhanced manipulation of subtle matter, again, Electrical. In the physical body. Increased control of the material via Spirit Energy, as the catalyst. A lot of Charlatans out there, but I think there is something to this.

Edited by Spida, 18 March 2017 - 03:47 PM.


#12 Spida

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 05:24 PM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 17 March 2017 - 04:20 PM, said:

For those who do feel it, I'm interested in descriptions of the physical sensations themselves and then their subsequent discussions of how they train and what they do. It doesn't have to be the LBRP, etc. It can be anything people do that is supposed to foster feelings of magical energy.

To avoid working this one out at the moment. I'm just going to say the "feelings" are varied, and quite ineffable at times. And not only with respect to the "physical", but also Within.

One thing that I have been doing lately that I think is relatively uncommon. And quite peculiar to my current Ritual, is Meditating on an Actual live video of the Sun. It is a decent sized display, and these Sun Videos make use of the entire space. Now you can see a lot of detail here, Solar activity, flares, et cetera. Time lapse so you can even see the Sun rotating on it's axis.

Now of course, I really need to be in an altered state to get any substantial Magickal energies from this, Internal or external. And the context is also Gnostic in nature.

When I undergo contemplation of profound Magickal concepts, or paradoxes in altered states this also produces Magical Energy.

Music aids in this experience quite a bit for me, as does pacing in my Ritual area and Singing the relevant Names of Power.

So there are a few synergies in play here for me.

#13 Imperial Arts

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 11:13 PM

REL: Do you actually believe that there is a hidden magical energy, heretofore unknown to science, that can be tapped with a few intonations and some air guitar? I don't intend to dismiss your sensations of energy as nonexistent or fantasies, rather that it isn't actually energy you are feeling. I would not know how to properly describe what I expect is in fact happening when the LBRP gives you the vibe, but "psychosomatic" is probably imprecise terminology.

I contend further that the parameters implicit in the intended direction of magical energy are only symbolic representations of desire, like a Sigil but held in the imagination until it becomes tangible to one or more of the senses. The energy paradigm works well enough in connection to animist totems, all the folklore magic of stones and charms, but it doesn't pan out well in terms of chi-balls, wizard beams, and blasting enemies with the Sign of Horus.

The use of "energy" as a divinatory paradigm, where one attempts to sense the energy of things, requires no actual energy to be present, only that you receive some form of information in reply to your desire to investigate. The energy, or the sense thereof, becomes the media through which the information is obtained, rather than as a vision or a spoken voice.

My experience with spirits has repeatedly led me to disregard a lot of what goes into occultism, and has especially encouraged me to seek out accurate scientific knowledge wherever possible.

The technological engineers of the world know that new energies can bring big wonderful things, and they're willing to put incredible amounts of resources toward that. They have looked at this "magical energy" stuff, you bet your bippy on it. And they've either decided to keep it a total secret and let us all think we might be nuts, or they haven't got a thing to show for all the effort. My bet is on the latter, leaving us with few corners in which an invisible and yet somehow powerful and perhaps universal energy source could hide.
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#14 violetstar

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:23 AM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 18 March 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:


On the surface, holding forth a spirit model while rejecting the idea of magical energy out of hand seems a bit ironic to me. That seems to be your orientation, IA. You've suggested that you reject the magical energy idea because you haven't experienced anything that's consistent with it. I'm interested to know what kind of experiences you have that supports your beliefs about spirit entities.

Again, while that question is directed to IA, I'm interested in hearing from anyone with an opinion about these things.

I am also interested to hear how spirits may operate without magical energy unless we are to rationalise that operation as some form of scientifically accepted process.
The use of "energy" as a divinatory paradigm, where one attempts to sense the energy of things, requires no actual energy to be present, only that you receive some form of information in reply to your desire to investigate. The energy, or the sense thereof, becomes the media through which the information is obtained, rather than as a vision or a spoken voice.
This seems to be a statement that contradicts itself.Either there is energy present or there is not.The sense thereof is in fact created by the energy which then becomes the media.
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#15 Spida

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:16 PM

I don't think I can emphasize this enough:

Not all TRUTHS can be arrived at through Logic, and Reasoning.

This is the reason for Magick, and Mysticism. Part of it anyways. To pick up where Science, and reason fails. But truth remains.

And as a matter of fact, in many cases, or perhaps most, and maybe even all(without enumerating the possibilities).
Science merely establishes correlations based on the fallacy:

post hoc, ergo propter hoc(This happens after that, ergo, this is because of that.).

I'd look at Science as a prerequisite to higher learning, then when you are ready, perhaps moving on to the air guitar after that. Actually, I would prefer to skip that and just meditate/contemplate with the ambient music.

Now of course, as has been mentioned elsewhere. QM does not conform to rational laws(physical laws), as Science does. In the quantum world absurdities can be true, e.g. a single Photon occupying two distinct locations in 4D Spacetime.

Now this absurd world of QM can run parallel with that of Magick and Mysticism. So you have Rituals and results that operate above reason, above science. I also believe that Consciousness, and it's function is more suited to be understood in terms of QM/Theoretical Physics in lieu of general science.

Higher learning will always leave behind Reason to a degree, where seemingly absurd practices will yield observable results.

Now from my perspective, I think different modes of consciousness are Key. The Aethyrs of the Microcosm. As opposed to something such as "Air Guitar" for example. But hey, whatever works, or makes you happy.

To acquire this Magickal Energy, I think you must "feel" Magickal while you are Practicing, to a degree. Try not to feel silly about what you are doing, and actually believe in it, and feel that you are capable of interacting on a Spiritual level.

I do feel slightly ill today, cold or a virus or something, maybe slightly different state of mind. But I don't think this post varies from my usual stuff :) I'm just going with the flow.

Cheers

Edited by Spida, 19 March 2017 - 01:40 PM.


#16 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 03:51 PM

View PostImperial Arts, on 18 March 2017 - 11:13 PM, said:

REL: Do you actually believe that there is a hidden magical energy, heretofore unknown to science, that can be tapped with a few intonations and some air guitar?

I wouldn't characterize my thinking on the subject that way, no. As noted in post #10, some people do conflate the notion of magical energy with physical energy and expect science/technology to validate it someday. I'll add here that I'm not among them. You can let that idea go now when considering what I say. My personal take at present is consistent with this other line from post #10:

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 18 March 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

It's not uncommon for people who experience what I'm talking about in this thread to assume that what they feel is real, without necessarily assuming that it's a form of physical energy.

I'll elaborate. My fundamental orientation could be described as a spirit model. It's somewhat unique as spirit models go in the OS community, but the most relevant part of it right now is that I assume the world and its workings include interactive, non-physical factors that are no less vital for their lack of matter. To give just a bit more of where I'm coming from, I hold that matter and spirit are interdependent, such that matter devoid of spirit is dead material, and spirit devoid of matter is nothing at all. With more specificity, I assume that matter depends on spirit for animation, spirit depends on matter for expression. Neither functions without the other. I frame my experience of magical energy in that wider context, as a direct experience of the part of the world in which we live that isn't physical.

View PostImperial Arts, on 18 March 2017 - 11:13 PM, said:

I don't intend to dismiss your sensations of energy as nonexistent or fantasies, rather that it isn't actually energy you are feeling. I would not know how to properly describe what I expect is in fact happening when the LBRP gives you the vibe, but "psychosomatic" is probably imprecise terminology.

Right then, its on you to acquiesce to the jargon or make up a new word for it if you want to talk about it.

View PostImperial Arts, on 18 March 2017 - 11:13 PM, said:

I contend further that the parameters implicit in the intended direction of magical energy are only symbolic representations of desire,

I understand your thinking. It reads like a reasonable theory for why people do the things they do, from the perspective of someone who doesn't know how it feels. I suggest that your thinking on the matter would change if your perceptual experience of it were stronger. I think there's probably a threshold after which any given experience demands integration into ones general perspective of the nature of the world in which we live.

View PostImperial Arts, on 18 March 2017 - 11:13 PM, said:

like a Sigil but held in the imagination until it becomes tangible to one or more of the senses. The energy paradigm works well enough in connection to animist totems, all the folklore magic of stones and charms,

Those are some of the sources for the jargon term (magical energy), with underlying notions about the nature of the world in which we live embedded within the practices. It's a safe bet that digging into the origins of those practices you'd be hard-pressed to find agreement with your symbolic representations theory. Rather, I think you'd find that the practices emerged from understandings of how the world works based on empirical experience. If your thinking about this stuff is based primarily on reading and thinking, it's worth acknowledging that your knowledge base excludes the real basis of what you're reading and thinking about.

View PostImperial Arts, on 18 March 2017 - 11:13 PM, said:

but it doesn't pan out well in terms of chi-balls, wizard beams, and blasting enemies with the Sign of Horus.

My experience suggests to me that chi-balls, wizard beams and such can have a direct and sometimes very powerful impact on the projector. For example, men who project sexual energy at someone trying to attract them for sex often manage to give themselves an erection. Nothing in my experience suggests a direct impact on the person at whom the energy is aimed. It is possible that the effects on the projector could translate into changes in behavior that secondarily increase the likelihood of sexual contact with the intended. That would be consistent with my general theory of how magick works: magick first and foremost changes the magician, and further changes in the world stem from those personal changes.

View PostImperial Arts, on 18 March 2017 - 11:13 PM, said:

The use of "energy" as a divinatory paradigm, where one attempts to sense the energy of things, requires no actual energy to be present, only that you receive some form of information in reply to your desire to investigate. The energy, or the sense thereof, becomes the media through which the information is obtained, rather than as a vision or a spoken voice.

I agree with Violetstar that you seem to have some pretzel logic going on there, but I also think I see where it's coming from: mostly, you don't like the use of the word energy for this stuff. Here's how I see it. If someone puts their hand on something and has a subsequent clairvoyant experience about it (something that apparently some people can do), calling what they sensed residual energy reflects the way in which they understand how the world works. Here again, your attitude about it might be different if you felt it the way they do. On that count, I don't know how that one feels either because that doesn't happen for me, but here's where you and I seem to really differ: I presume that's due to a personal limitation on my part, not a misunderstanding on theirs.

View PostImperial Arts, on 18 March 2017 - 11:13 PM, said:

My experience with spirits has repeatedly led me to disregard a lot of what goes into occultism, and has especially encouraged me to seek out accurate scientific knowledge wherever possible.

That's an interesting change of heart for you.

So, what I requested from you in post #10 gets to the heart of the matter. The empirical basis of your attitudes. I'll pose the inquiry again.

I'm interested to know what kind of experiences you have that supports your beliefs about spirit entities.

Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 19 March 2017 - 03:56 PM.

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#17 Spida

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 04:56 PM

I would just like to present an additional facet to what Mr. Laughlin said about the Duality of Spirit and Matter. And this would be my primary response to inquiry of the reason for the marriage of the two. It would merely consist of a single word: "Experience". As in a Sentient Being, Spiritual Being, Experiencing this Four Dimensional Reality Construct via the Sensory Input of the Material Vessel.


Edit:

I would also like to comment on the interaction of the incorporeal reality constructs that are superimposed over this Four Dimensional one(R.E.L. Post 16), and how this interaction is based on Modes of Consciousness(As within, so Without).

I'll use the Shadow Person Phenomena as an example. Since it is well documented, persistent, and relevant here. There are two methods that Evoke this Phenomena. One is Mind Altering Substances. The other is Sleep States(Hypnagogic, or Hypnopompic). Whichever the method, the manifestation of this "Invisible Reality" is dependent on the Experiencer.

I thought this might make a reasonable example of interaction with some of these "invisible constructs", or Spirit Energy. Now i'm not sure whether this Phenomena exists and we are just oblivious to it(like most energy), is manifested by internal mechanisms, or both.

There are other Layers of Reality(incorporeal), that can either be experienced or not, dependent on the Experiencer. The Shadow Person Phenomena is one; Old Hag Syndrome. You could have multiple Incorporeal entities that occupy a Group, that exists as a single extra layer of reality. Also with other layers existing, stacked upon one another.

Edited by Spida, 19 March 2017 - 09:32 PM.


#18 oneiroplanes

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 05:57 PM

Quote

The energy paradigm works well enough in connection to animist totems, all the folklore magic of stones and charms, but it doesn't pan out well in terms of chi-balls, wizard beams, and blasting enemies with the Sign of Horus.

Do you think, then, that the animist model is bunk?

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#19 violetstar

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 09:33 PM

Will the Right Honourable Gentleman IA please explain

"My experience with spirits has repeatedly led me to disregard a lot of what goes into occultism, and has especially encouraged me to seek out accurate scientific knowledge wherever possible"

What headway was made in seeking out a scientific analysis? What has been disregarded? What exactly is the empiricism forming your opinion on spirits?
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#20 Imperial Arts

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:20 PM

VS: On numerous occasions I have put to the spirits questions of how things work, and especially how to get things to work. One of the curiosities that continually appeared was the insistence that the standard models of magic are inadequate, and that a lot of what we think is happening in regard to magical events either isn't happening like we expect or doesn't at all. One of those things is the idea that sorcery of whatever sort occurs through some fluid or atmospheric media, or by some other subtle essence contained within the procedures and their ephemera. Instead I received counsel to avoid making speculations on that kind of thing, as a practical and philosophical dead-end, and turn my efforts to learning the mystic secrets of subjects like metallurgy and medicine, as well as other matters wherein they have been helpful.

REL: We have spoken before on the subject of "weather magic," and at that point I had mentioned this viewpoint, saying in effect that the weatherman would not suddenly encounter a blast of energy from an unknown source on the Doppler. The weather magic might turn your day from sunny to storm in the space of ten minutes, but the overall ways in which this occurs are going to appear entirely consistent with the way weather works, without any extra input from an occult source. The same principle applies with other works of magic, in that something can be made to either steer itself conveniently into place or it can radically alter its course to get where the magician wants it to be, and in either case the event happens seamlessly in the Grand Scheme, without any added invisible energy.
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