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The Magician Self And The Higher Genius/hga

octarine HGA higher self higher genius

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#1 Master_K@ne

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 01:36 PM

Question.

What is the difference between Peter J. Carroll's conception of the 'Magician Self' and the Holy Guardian Angel/Higher Self/Higher Genius?
Is there a difference?

I'm curious. Personally, I don't make use of the HGA label, but prefer to use the term Higher Genius (personal preference, maybe some old-school GD influence). Pure Semantics.

However, my conception of the term is influenced by Peter J. Carroll's take on the matter. Quoting Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia...uardian_Angel]:

"An occult writer, Peter Carroll split the concept in two and speaks of two "Holy Guardian Angels". According to his work Liber Null and Psychonaut, one is the Augoeides,[7] a projected image of whatever the magician strives for, and the other is quantum uncertainty, which ultimately determines the acts of the magician and is a spark of the only true creative force, the chaos of Chaos magic."

Strangely enough, after reading Liber Kaos, I came to realise that my conception of the Higher Genius rests somewhere between that of a classical (or my understanding thereof) Golden Dawn notion of the Higher Self (the Kabbalistic Neshama) and Carroll's notion of the Magician Self (a personality construct born from Octarine or the eighth color of magic). Now I'm not going to explain why my conception involves some hybrid mutation (I have my reasons for believing this, mostly based on intuition).

That being said...
Is there a difference?
Or am I comparing apples with hand grenades?

#2 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 04:13 PM

View PostMaster_K@ne, on 08 February 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

Is there a difference?

Of course there are, but the literal differences (derived denotations from the authors) probably pale in comparison to differences arising in the minds of the beholders. That is, in my estimation, after dispensing with academic readers and getting to practitioners, there's no good reason to assume that any two individuals mean the same thing when they claim K&CHGA. For some it's an epiphany that settles some set of personal but unspeakable questions; for others, it's a tutelary extraterrestrial intelligence; for others still, it's a permanent change in brain wave patterns that alters perception thereafter; and then, for some it's some particular combination of those and/or similar (or variously dissimilar) notions.

The variance in the descriptions presumably come from having an experience that is largely ineffable, but after having decided on a label. I have long theorized that any sincere seeker who develops a liking for the idea of an HGA construct, who works diligently, and then has a dramatically unique experience, is likely to stick the label on it and thereafter attribute most anything they perceive as progress to it. By extension, an equally sincere seeker who's never heard of the HGA construct will attach whatever label they do have to such an experience: Ascended Master, Spirit Guide, Alien, Jesus, etc.

If that theory holds water, a common result in discussion forums like this may often be two people using common language to describe very different things, but each feeling they agree with the other. For me, presuming equivalence is short/narrow sighted, tantamount to accepting that all ineffable experiences are equivalent.

There's another manifestation in the discussion forums that rise from Crowleyana. This phenomenon, I surmise, comes from the religious significance of K&CHGA as the signature moment that marks the evolution of the individual from Trog to a Agency, thereafter inevitably enacting True Will (merging the personal with the universal). There's a lot of peer pressure in that, which can lead susceptible types toward claiming to know things they really don't know and attainments they really haven't achieved, which of course further muddies up the conversational waters on the internet. Some of that mess very likely makes it way into the Wikipedia articles, which later generations read instead of the primary sources... let's face it. The internet is both a boon to civilization and a pox on truth.

As for Carroll, it always seemed to me that in his early career he aspired to be the next Crowley. If that's roughly so, some of his work may amount to little more than a new jargon, new labels for similar if not identical constructs in his own mind. I mean, there's no reason to assume he was never subject to paragraph #2. I do think he had and further developed unique ideas though, in fairness.

Out of personal curiosity, K@ne, to what degree do you feel it matters? Not the choice of label, but the experience that you associate with your preferred label for what you're asking about?
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#3 Imperial Arts

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 03:26 AM

Carroll has continually worked away from the "ritual and dogma" of magic in the sense that Crowley understood it. Liber Null was more or less a summary of Spare, and is probably best used as a springboard for entertaining ideas about the subject of magic rather than as a comprehensive practical guide. His more recent works have much more emphasis on magic as a "natural philosophy" of a sort that could be appreciated by modern scientists, although unfortunately he retains a lot of mythological and fantasy elements as well.

At some point, he put out an essay in which he described the three types of Magus, or "masters" of magic. The first is the Apotheosis (the person you want to be), the second is the Nemesis (a worthy enemy), and the third is the Hierophant (a teacher) which he also calls the False Magus. These are all people exterior to yourself with whom you interact in some way, for better or worse, and it appears that the Wikipedia author has conflated the Apotheosis with the Augoeides in some respects.

Just like the "circles of flaming petrol" and other more classical elements of magic, his recent works have been at pains to dismiss what he believes to be the dross of the subject, and where he does involve poetic or mythic elements it is more or less done for the sake of meeting the market's expectations. I like to think he is really onto something with the idea of "reality as the only symbol system," and kicking out all of the bad astrology and pop psychology, but people continue to demand things like a definitive version of the True Will rather than focusing on things like developing extradimensional technology.
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#4 Shinichi

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 05:28 AM

"Now, on the other hand, there is an entirely different type of angel; and here we must be especially careful to remember that we include gods and devils, for there are such beings who are not by any means dependent on one particular element for their existence. They are microcosms in exactly the same sense as men and women are. They are individuals who have picked up the elements of their composition as possibility and convenience dictates, exactly as we do ourselves... I believe that the Holy Guardian Angel is a Being of this order. He is something more than a man, possibly a being who has already passed through the stage of humanity, and his peculiarly intimate relationship with his client is that of friendship, of community, of brotherhood, or Fatherhood. He is not, let me say with emphasis, a mere abstraction from yourself; and that is why I have insisted rather heavily that the term 'Higher Self' implies a damnable heresy and a dangerous delusion."

Crowley, Magick Without Tears.

My own experiences line up with the stance Crowley took later in his life, as listed above. The HGA and the Higher Self are two completely different things, the former being an external being assigned to govern certain aspects of your existence and the later being your own spirit. Confusing the two or using the terms and concepts interchangeably is not only dangerous as Crowley states, it's impractical.



~:Shin:~
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#5 Master_K@ne

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Posted 09 February 2017 - 02:44 PM

This goes out to R. Eugene Laughlin.

[Out of personal curiosity, K@ne, to what degree do you feel it matters? Not the choice of label, but the experience that you associate with your preferred label for what you're asking about?
Effectiveness is the Measure of Truth - R. Eugene Laughlin]


Hopefully this will answer your question (and not give you nightmares for reading it).
First, let me state that I am nowhere near Adepthood in the classical or any sense of the term (Golden Dawn-ish orientation). I’m a Neophyte, if you wish, but I’m not part of any magickal order.
I am a Neophyte whose practical knowledge does not extend beyond the Qabalistic Cross and Lesser Pentagram Ritual. Tried the Greater Pentagram Ritual, but decided to stop. Tried dipping my big toe in Lake Enochiana, but I think the water was too warm for me at that stage, obviously.
Haven’t screwed up my mind in the process either.
Though I think writing down the First Enochian Call (in Enochian) a while back might have had some sort of effect on my nervous system or adrenal glands.
The short version…
I’m a noob…

Why the question?
The idea of a Higher Self is something that started fascinating me long before my foray into the world of the arcane. The idea of something lying beyond the confines of the ego made sense to me on some sort of intuitive level. Of course, I must add that this Higher Self at first involved being a vessel for my Will (unfortunately, ‘my Will’ gives the impression of egoic will, but it is a Will seeking to break through the conditioning of the ego, in a sense). A Transcendental Will, but only Transcendental as in ‘Transcending the Illusion’ of an Absolute Ego.
Or something.
Then along came Kabbalah/Qabalah and the Sephirotic Tree of Life. And some new concepts, such as the division of the soul into five parts, the Nephesch, Ruach, Neshama, Chaia and Yechidah. The Transcendental Will, or rather Creative Will now found ‘form’ in the Sephirah of Chokmah. After reading some Golden Dawn (courtesy of Israel Regardie, too the greatest extent), I came upon the term Higher Genius.
And now I’m going to cut things a bit short, before I end up confusing you…
And eventually myself…

I associate the Higher Genius with Kether, the Crown, Yechidah, the Primal Flame etc. (the image of the flame being important to me).
I associate the Higher/Creative Will with Chokmah, and the Higher Intuition with Binah.
I associate the Higher Self with Tiphareth.
I do not consider the Higher Genius to be anything other than, for the lack of a better term, a ‘Transcendental Principle’. It is not a person. Not in the sense that the ego implies personality (the ego as a manifestation of the individual unconscious). Gareth Knight refers to Tiphareth as our individuality (and not our personality). From this individuality springs forth personality (reminding me of Zen Buddhist Self-Nature). Therefore, the idea of the HGA being separate from one’s own unconscious, contrary to Crowley, is useless.
And so forth…
But going beyond oneself requires a roadmap (to avoid getting lost in the desert called psychosis – reminds me of the Abyss). The Higher Self, as a lower manifestation of the Higher Genius (how I see it – the archetypal flame in a vehicle) is this roadmap. That is how I came to look at it, and that is why, after reading Liber Null [I quote: “The operation of obtaining the knowledge and conversation is usually a lengthy one. The magician is attempting a progressive metamorphosis, a complete overhaul of his entire existence. Yet he has to seek the blueprint for his reborn self as he goes along.” p. 49 – AUGOEIDES] and the part I quoted from Wikipedia [According to his work Liber Null and Psychonaut, one is the Augoeides,[7] a projected image of whatever the magician strives for, and the other is quantum uncertainty, which ultimately determines the acts of the magician and is a spark of the only true creative force, the chaos of Chaos magic."], I realised that the Higher Self and Higher Genius are kind of two sides of the same coin (kind of, there might be a better analogy out there). The Higher Self is the ‘projected image’, while the Higher Genius is ‘quantum uncertainty’, the spark of Chaos.
It must be added that I am not an aspiring Chaos Magician. However, Chaos can be associated with the Sephirah of Chokmah – Binah being the ‘Ordering’ or ‘Form-Giving’ principle. This would make it rather interesting for me, as it brings it back to the issue of the ‘Transcendent/Creative’ Will (or Crowley-ian True Will).
To ‘become’ the Higher Self (an expression in need of a substantial amount of elaboration).

So what of Carroll’s Magician Self?
Another long story short, I conceive the Primal Flame on a microcosmic level (my level) as being of a crimson black nature (basically black and blood red mixed together in an ‘antagonistic fashion’ – mixing, but not mixing) with a hue or haze of green.
Something along that line.
I also conceive it as the colour of Will, my Creative Will, the drive to go beyond.
This colour of mine I also associate with the Higher Self (the Higher Self as the blueprint for Metamorphosis, and the Fire as the fuel). However, after reading Liber Kaos, I came to the intuitive conclusion that this colour might also be my personal perception of the colour of magic a.k.a. octarine. If the octarine power is allowed to flower, it “…creates the magician self or personality in the psyche” – Liber Kaos. The Magician Self involves Godforms associated with the planet Uranus (or Ouranos, in order to avoid the stupid jokes associated with the other designation). This is also rather interesting, as Ouranos is either associated with the Sephirah of Chokmah (and hence the Will again), or using Kenneth Grant’s scheme, the Sephirah of Da’ath (a connection which implies a plethora of ideas). In Lurianic Kabbalah, Da’ath is a reflection of Kether. Together with Chokmah and Binah, it can also be viewed as the superconscious. For me, Da’ath is in some way involved with the transition from Higher Genius to Higher Self (as well as an ‘archetypal image’ of mine I realised is similar to a Godform).
Setting aside the antinomianism and predilection for deviousness, it would appear that my notions concerning the Higher Genius and Higher Self (all of which came about through intuition and interesting synchronicities) involve a bit of Carroll’s Magician Self as well.
Is it working for me? What is the experience I associate with ‘my preferred label’/madness? I’ll found out soon enough, through a range of rituals and exercises and meditations and an adapted Bornless Ritual (among other). Or at least try to. Hence there isn’t much of an experience accept intuition, though intuition doesn’t make much of an experience. I might end up with a rather explosive cocktail (or get consumed by the Flame).
Hence the question, is there a difference?

[Note: If none of this made any sense, I apologise.]

#6 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 10 February 2017 - 04:18 PM

View PostMaster_K@ne, on 09 February 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

I’m a noob…

I appreciate that.

View PostMaster_K@ne, on 09 February 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

Why the question?
The idea of a Higher Self is something that started fascinating me long before my foray into the world of the arcane. The idea of something lying beyond the confines of the ego made sense to me on some sort of intuitive level. Of course, I must add that this Higher Self at first involved being a vessel for my Will (unfortunately, ‘my Will’ gives the impression of egoic will, but it is a Will seeking to break through the conditioning of the ego, in a sense). A Transcendental Will, but only Transcendental as in ‘Transcending the Illusion’ of an Absolute Ego.

Or something.

Is it that you're broken and need fixing? That a parasite has taken control and needs to be purged? Or...?
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#7 ChaosTech

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Posted 11 February 2017 - 03:09 AM

Pope Pete also wrote a lot about the multidimensional personas and our sense of identity. I find all that stuff important in a yogic way. Honestly though, I think the extensions of the self, others, all they make up, and the transcendent "God," beyond, or unmanifest, is incredibly complex. I try to think more holistically, and less analytically when aiming for spiritual or magical insights and evolution, these days. Really don't forget to just be "you," you know more or less who you are and what you like and that's very important to remember. It's the magical personality of us magicians, the Wizards soul. Feed it, live it, its precious.

Edited by ChaosTech, 11 February 2017 - 03:10 AM.



For nearly 20 years I meditated on and studied that which has no name, but is absolute, infinite, beyond both small and large. Finally one day I realized the limits of my sentient consciousness. It has all power over whether we are it or dual. There is no choice of the nondual, for choice is dual. Just be, live, do what you will, with love and wisdom. As Hermes said, in a time yet unborn, all shall be one, and one shall be all. True enlightenment has nothing to do with attainment. It's an inner peace, that there is nothing to be done, I call it surrender to the Spirit.

#8 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 03:07 PM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 10 February 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:


Is it that you're broken and need fixing? That a parasite has taken control and needs to be purged? Or...?

I realized that these question might be easily misinterpreted. It wasn't meant as a personal put down of any sort. What I hoped to get at is why would people need to engage in extraordinary efforts to get at their "true" self, or "higher self" or whatever one chooses to call it. What's the thinking behind that?
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#9 Master_K@ne

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 05:43 AM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 16 February 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:



I realized that these question might be easily misinterpreted. It wasn't meant as a personal put down of any sort. What I hoped to get at is why would people need to engage in extraordinary efforts to get at their "true" self, or "higher self" or whatever one chooses to call it. What's the thinking behind that?

Firstly, sorry for taking so long to reply (I was kind of preoccupied).
Secondly, I did not interpret the last reply as a 'put down'.
It's all good.

Why seek to discover your True Will?
Transcendence.
Or stated differently, to be more than you are. Going beyond yourself.
Yes, there is the matter of accepting yourself, but then also realising that 'yourself' isn't permanent, nor the place to stop and camp. It is, so to speak, the Prima Materia for the Alchemical process of creating the Philosophers Stone.

There is a more 'simpler' reason for seeking to 'embrace your Higher Genius'.

Because you can.

Many great (and terrifying) things have been accomplished on this insane planet because of the mere imposition of one individual's will upon the world...

#10 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 02:06 PM

View PostMaster_K@ne, on 24 February 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:


Why seek to discover your True Will?
Transcendence.

Or stated differently, to be more than you are. Going beyond yourself.

So, what I was asking is, what's wrong with "yourself," meaning any of our selves, that it needs transcending? Are we defective? If there is a "Higher Genius" out there, why isn't it in charge to begin with?
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#11 Spida

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 02:47 AM

I had an epiphany about the HGA, and it does appear to be reasonable on some level.

If in fact Creation is subject to Eternal Recurrence, then it may follow that evolution of the Soul
has occurred already, and possibly an infinite number of times. Perhaps the highest rank being
Archangel status, or some other analog. Prior to the soul being made new, and remanifesting.

So, if this evolution occurred in THIS Universe then your HGA would exist in the past, and may have
yet to exist in the future as well.

Or perhaps in some other Universe; as part of a Multiverse, transcending time. Although this
introduces a paradox, which is unavoidable.

This Hypothesis is vaguely superficial however, and it's viability is questionable.

Just my two cents
cheers
:)

P.S.
If these sort of posts are undesirable, I will take the hint and be more careful in the future.
And apologize in advance.
Since no thing defines it's own creation. It cannot be held responsible for it's nature; then there are choices.

#12 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 06:03 AM

View PostSpida, on 25 February 2017 - 02:47 AM, said:


P.S.
If these sort of posts are undesirable, I will take the hint and be more careful in the future.
And apologize in advance.

There are no rules against musing and speculation here.
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#13 Spida

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 12:27 PM

View PostR. Eugene Laughlin, on 25 February 2017 - 06:03 AM, said:

There are no rules against musing and speculation here.

Yes, this is one of the Main reasons I got involved with Magick to begin with. It appears "Reason",
or "Contemplation" will only get you so far. Reason is ultimately transcended, either by "Truth",
or by itself, i.e. the paradoxes.

So to progress further, it made sense to attempt interaction with some of these things that are
theorized about, the "Unseen", etc., but that we are otherwise oblivious to.

I mean for starters, Electromagnetic Energy is a great example of an Unseen Force, given to us
by Science, thankfully. Invisible waveforms propagating through space capable of manifesting
two dimensional images with sound, given a transmitter and receiver of course. Relative to this
analogy, and in Magick, I would hypothesize Consciousness as an agent for transmitting, and
manifesting tenuous frequencies akin to EM Energy. Energy that incorporeal bodies are
composed of.

it's a little off track, I have a tendency to direct things towards my ideology. My modest Science
base, where things have been proven(even if not ultimately),

Cheers
Since no thing defines it's own creation. It cannot be held responsible for it's nature; then there are choices.





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