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Did Christian Emissaries Steal More Than The Silkworm?


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#1 Tzimisce

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Posted 26 December 2016 - 03:05 PM

Title. When christians first reached china, a pair of monks stole silkworms and copied without license, the porcelain working. The most ridiculous thing ever, is the dispute between Orthodox Christians and Catholics, as to who was the one to steal from the Chinese first, naming it even an "achievement" for Europe at the time... But there are more things astray.

1. Mudras. Yes, you heard me right. Hand gestures. Used in Tendai Buddhism, Shingon Mikkyo and Shugendo, ergo, mountain ascetics. First founded in Taoism "to traverse mountains and pass from dangers on a trip unharmed", or "call upon the 10 heavenly warrior generals to protect the mystic". Or the fabled ninja fairy tales of old like "cloaking one's presence/make them invisible", "get limited healing", etc. If someone carefully inspects Christian drawings of saints, even the Christ's himself, ALL of them are depicted doing that "blessing" symbol, which is actually... A HAND GESTURE, or a MUDRA! Some of them are even direct RIP-OFFS from certain statues of Buddha, like that one with thumb and ring finger meeting, all others extend. Buddhism predated christianity as a fact and hinduism predated buddhism, also as a fact. Strange, no? Same thing goes for halos, which is originally a symbol appearing in Hindu culture, a polytheistic one even worse (worse for christians, i mean). Strange things...

2. Tibetan Malas. No explanation needed here, i presume? A rip-off is a rip-off, anyone can notice that much. Rosario, right? Right...

3. Incense. Early christianity had nothing to do with colorful clothes, altars, spiritualistic and consecrated tools, holy symbols/emblems, funny hats and incense, or anything that would remind of idolaters, on that matter at hand. All this stuff was heavily frowned upon and despised, much like drawing holy figures (said to be against the commandments of God even), event which reached its climax during iconomachy and iconolatry in Byzantine Empire, which is another story, sadly. India and China had (and still do) the best ritual incense around. You know a copycat when you see one. Right? Incense, colorful clothes, altars, spiritualistic tools, funny hats and incense... The "despicable" paraphernalia of idolaters and "demon-worshippers", suddenly became a mainstream in christianity, as well.

4. The holy ghost depicted as Pidgeon. Legend speaks of Trong-Jug yoga, a very secular sect that thrived once. Its practitioners were said to be able to perform superhuman feats, such as the modern occult-fables of "astral projection", "travel of soul outside the body" and their sect's supposed greatest secret, lost to time forever: "transmigration of soul to another body". Guess how they symbolized and depicted that? How very original. A "Pidgeon". Pidgeon had always symbolized a materialized soul traversing the planes and visiting mortals. Much time before christians set foot to China and the surrounding places. Coincidence? I don't think so. Also, some writings hint towards christians even leading to the extinction of this very sect (who was also said to be extremely peaceful, besides secular), but evidence and official historic reference is sadly, both absent and severely lacking, in that regard.

Your thoughts?

Edited by Tzimisce, 26 December 2016 - 03:08 PM.


#2 Sandalphon

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Posted 26 December 2016 - 06:44 PM

How about this:

http://www.msn.com/e...gypt/ar-BBxv6b3

"The rock painting raises questions about the meaning ascribed to nativity scenes long before the birth of Christ. "

#3 wren

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Posted 26 December 2016 - 07:47 PM

Christianity was born in a time and place where it was possible to steal metric tons of symbolism and ritual technique. That said, this incorporation of pre-existing symbolism and technique is nothing new or wrong. I also think you are exaggerating either the importance or likelihood of your specific examples.



#4 Sandalphon

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Posted 26 December 2016 - 10:15 PM

Not at all. I am merely adding to the thread with a comparative example concerning the topic under discussion. The appropriation of the pagan ritual trappings, paraphalia, ecclesiastical claptrap, mysterious myths and legends by Christians served very well to lure the hapless into the "fold".

#5 wren

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Posted 26 December 2016 - 10:51 PM

I was replying to OP, sorry for the confusion Sandalphon. My view is that there were plenty of pagans around for the Christians to appropriate from before you have to get out to the "East." Hell, most early Christians converted from some sort of paganism under the influence of Constantine. It'd be weird if they didn't keep some of the symbols and methods of Mythraism or the worship of Isis.

#6 ChaosTech

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 03:15 AM

Isn't kinda obvious Christians stole or discarded every religion around them. I mean after all Jesus didn't even write down his own teachings, and even with the cannon gospels let alone the heretical ones, we don't have a lot on the guy. From messianic Jew to whole another religion. I've recently converted, based on real miraculous events of Jesus saving my ass from serious spiritual trouble, and it's been one times too many for me, even though I'm esoteric, to not believe in whatever way I can in the Guy.

Edited by ChaosTech, 27 December 2016 - 03:16 AM.

[i]There are no gods but God, we know him through his order, his mind, the the miracle Jesus Christ. Give up most magic, give up enlightenment and or transcendence. No one can behold God, infinite is beyond, submit and know it creates and sustains creation forever. No true limit, no true death, no true nothingness. E=MC2, and gain and sustainability are greater than loss. The universe infinitely is expanding, growing becoming better and more immortal as are we. Resist evil, for it is an excess, ultimately a lie of true death. There is hell, as the Bible says, but there is choice! Choose wisely. Human origins, cosmic life, magical creatures, heaven, hell, earth and purgatory, many religions. Fascinating indeed, but in this world, no man was like Jesus Christ, and has the worlds largest faith.[\i]

#7 Tzimisce

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 01:33 PM

 wren, on 26 December 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

this incorporation of pre-existing symbolism and technique is nothing new or wrong.

This would be the case, hadn't the epistles of the apostles been written and in detail advising the faithful christians at the time. The pillars of this religion, since Christ was resurrected after dying (and not having left anything written behind), are the apostles and their letters with the "know-hows" and the "inside-outs". Peter is considered the "rock", the "foundation" of christianity, for example.

Let's just assume that those are trivial things (paraphernalia). And let's just bypass the fact that christianity's bigshots went straight and strictly against those being used, or being used to identify "demon worshipers", even worse. Shall we cast a look upon the letters and the advice, then?

In second epistle from Paul to Timothy:
Warning against false teachers and demon worshipers: http://biblehub.com/...1_timothy/4.htm

Warnings against False Teachers
1Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 2influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron.
3They will prohibit marriage and require abstinence from certain foods that God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4For every creation of God is good, and nothing that is received with thanksgiving should be rejected, 5because it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Or Titus: http://biblehub.com/bsb/titus/1.htm

An elder must be blameless, the husband of one wife, having children who are believers and are not open to accusation of indiscretion or insubordination.

What did chistians of a later age do? Forbade marriage of higher ranking clerics, resulting in all manner of twisted behaviors, scandals, crimes even, like rape and pedophilia, Orthodox ones too, this is not a sole privilege of Catholics in no way! The Synodoi under the Byzantine emperor, were to decide on heretics, isolate and banish them, but they didn't stop there... Gatherings of humans, went against and changed at will, the urging and advice of the apostles themselves! The very things the apostles warned against, exactly those were decided upon and enforced, on the shoulders of every christian, from then, up to date. Food abstinence, enforced agamy and those are only two. But as the apostles themselves proclaim: "THOSE BE THE SIGNS OF FALSE TEACHERS and... DEMON WORSHIPERS". This be much more important than paraphernalia and accessories, yet somehow, everyone always forgets it (or doesn't even know of).

Edited by Tzimisce, 27 December 2016 - 01:42 PM.


#8 wren

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 03:19 PM

I have more sympathy for the "demon whorshipers" than the apostles, and that might be coloring things for me, but part of being a living tradition lasting for around 2000 years is change.

The plain fact is that most Christians believe in the infallibility of the Bible and don't bother to read more than a few pages of the thing. They just rely on a patchwork of "bible quotes" they pick out from sermons.

Yes there has been political manipulation of the Christian Faith, but that's true of any religion. What happens when you sit down to a church service is more important to a lay person than any document, and it is the laity and the converts that are going to smuggle in their old religion.

Edited by wren, 27 December 2016 - 03:20 PM.


#9 Tzimisce

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 05:00 PM

 wren, on 27 December 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

I have more sympathy for the "demon whorshipers" than the apostles, and that might be coloring things for me, but part of being a living tradition lasting for around 2000 years is change.

The plain fact is that most Christians believe in the infallibility of the Bible and don't bother to read more than a few pages of the thing. They just rely on a patchwork of "bible quotes" they pick out from sermons.

Yes there has been political manipulation of the Christian Faith, but that's true of any religion. What happens when you sit down to a church service is more important to a lay person than any document, and it is the laity and the converts that are going to smuggle in their old religion.

While i agree to the same things for apparently different reasons... If we have to be precise... Ever since the dark ages, as per the Apostles' decree at least, then; There Is No Christianity. There are Fake Teachers and Demon Worshipers everywhere, instead.

I agree that change is a natural outcome/phenomenon, desirable even at times, but there is a thing as a U turn, an 180 degrees turn, or more precisely, "Becoming the exact opposite of whatever you initially started as". Which is the case here. Stealing- sorry, borrowing is one thing, but degrading at exactly what the founding members warned the faithful ones of their time AGAINST, is clearly another. I bet some snake is rubbing its winged hands gleefully over this whole deal, over the last many centuries...

But then again, i am no (longer a) Christian. Researching older stuff can lead you to disturbing and upsetting truths, or realization of (possible) theft, lies, forgery, crime in one word. Stuff that can make even your entire worldview change overnight, potentially. And i didn't even touch the vandalizing of the statues in Rome, the burning down and tearing down of ancient temples and priceless artifacts, the atrocities of spanish in the americas who wiped off the earth entire civilizations destroying their cultures completely in the process (especially the religious ones), or the darkest point ever; the years of the Inquisition.

Edited by Tzimisce, 27 December 2016 - 05:06 PM.


#10 wren

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 06:17 PM

We have some little idea of what the "demon" worshippers of the bible were doing with the discovery of the ugaritic tablets at Ras Shamra.

It wasn't evil. It was just polytheistic. That's an inexcusable blasphemy to the monolatry of the religions of the God of Abraham, but, frankly, Yahweh started off as a canaanite tribal god. Change happened and the old was called evil. Then you get further change and further defamation and obscuration of the past. It kept up long enough that they went right around the circle sometimes a couple of times.

There's nothing evil about baptism by fire compared to baptism by water. The whole point of baptism by fire is that we pass through the flames unscathed.

#11 voidgazing

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 02:26 AM

Quote

Christianity was born in a time and place where it was possible to steal metric tons of symbolism and ritual technique.

Not just possible but absolutely necessary. I'm trying to think of a single religion that didn't use the symbolic grammar of one that came before.
This is a postcard sent from the dining room of the HMS Russel's Teapot. Wish you were here- the band is spot on tonight, and we're having "all the way down" turtle soup!





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