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Real Demons Vs Egregores


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#1 Rofocale

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 06:38 AM

I'm new to the occult and have been studying the 72 Keys of Solomon as of late. Lately I've been pondering on which of the 72 demons listed in the grimoire are actual demons and which are simply egregores or thoughforms. When I say actual demons, what I'm referring to are ancient entities pre-existing humanity itself.Is it simply a matter of opinion which category different entities fall under or is there a method for determining this. I believe I once watched a video in which EA Koetting explained that after dismissing the demon from an evocation he would follow the entity back to the astral plane using soul/astral travel and would find that there would be what appeared similar to smoke in the demons place when it was an egregore and conversely, he would find an actual entity residing there when it was a real demon.

#2 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 03:33 PM

I believe that all egregores pre-exist as another entity, and when they become who they are now it is the equivalent for them of reincarnation for us. I am not able to follow them back and check on them though!

Edited by SuccubusSherry, 23 September 2016 - 03:34 PM.

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#3 Imperial Arts

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 06:31 AM

Ponder less and do more!

EA Koetting discovering his demons are made of crack vapors might be pure BS, but at least he's presumably doing something.

You will have to discover how approach the whole ritual magic thing in a way that works for you. It is easy to get in over your head if you begin by mucking around with the ruling hierarchy of demons, but the whole thing is worthless if you do not intend to become better, bigger, more powerful, or better off in life. Calling demons just to ask them about demons is a waste of time. Ask for things that are useful to know and useful to have done for you.
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#4 TheCusp

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 02:21 PM

View PostSuccubusSherry, on 23 September 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

I believe that all egregores pre-exist as another entity, and when they become who they are now it is the equivalent for them of reincarnation for us. I am not able to follow them back and check on them though!

Just heard the god Janus explained on a bad Canadian film, and damn if it isn't Ino!


Demons have their own awareness, their own pool of attention. Egregores don't, and need the awareness of other living creatures. I've been reading stuff that suggests residual awareness from the recently deceased can be given to your tulpas, granting them their own awareness.
“Come in close. Closer. Because the more you think you see, the easier it’ll be to fool you. Because what is seeing? You’re looking, but what you’re really doing is filtering, interpreting, searching for meaning. My job? To take that most precious of gifts you give me, your attention, and use it against you.” - Now You See Me

#5 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 02:40 PM

The sounds in Ino's name are an anagram of Aeon, Aon, Ion and Oni. I think she takes part in a greater identity that encompasses more than one entity, although at first I thought it was only one.

Our OP Rofocale was talking about the 72 original demons and the traditional belief is that none of them are egregores- they are all original entities from early history before egregores were made.
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#6 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 03:09 PM

Ino can be Ian as well. Sounds like the boy next door, doesn't it?- but more sinister.

I tend to think the names tell you more than the sigils. Do you remember I posted a lot a couple of years ago about a servitor that made itself? She was part of a greater male entity who I thought was called Ray, but then I found it was Re when someone in the project on Facebook painted a picture of Re and in fact he called him 'Oni bull Re'; I think he had been studying him from a far eastern source. Re might be considered goetic or more ancient but the servitor was someone who split off from him in modern times.

It's like the tip of an iceberg- we can't see what they are doing beneath the surface, but I would guess it would feel like stagnation for them to keep the same identity, when physical beings keep changing theirs when they reincarnate.

Edited by SuccubusSherry, 25 September 2016 - 03:13 PM.

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#7 Rofocale

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 09:09 AM

View PostSuccubusSherry, on 25 September 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

Our OP Rofocale was talking about the 72 original demons and the traditional belief is that none of them are egregores- they are all original entities from early history before egregores were made.

Really? I had a feeling most of them were with a few exceptions. The most notable being Astaroth because this demon was derived from the Canaanite goddess Astarte who was in turn derived from the earlier Mesopotamian goddess Ishtar who was herself derived from the even earlier Sumerian goddess Innana. I surmised that an egregore was created each time a 'new' god/demon was derived from an earlier one with the first or original entity likely being the real one; therefore, each of the aforementioned goddess are real and exist separate form each other with characteristics slightly differing each time. This explains why the male demon Astaroth is so different from the earlier goddess's that he is derived from.

#8 Imperial Arts

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 09:58 PM

That particular line of thought has been discussed at length, but for my own opinion I make no distinction between Astaroth and the primordial goddess revered in several religions. The ravens of Odin, Andraste and Morrigan, the various Baals and Baalat, Amon and Horus, Aesculapius, Apollo, and several well known deities are represented there alongside lesser known mythic figures like the Fu-lion, Pharphar, the Phoenix, and Phoroneus.

The system is explicitly Monotheist, which leaves room for only God as supreme, all other spirits (including ourselves) being merely its creatures.
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#9 Sword of Justice

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 01:47 PM

View PostSuccubusSherry, on 23 September 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

I believe that all egregores pre-exist as another entity, and when they become who they are now it is the equivalent for them of reincarnation for us. I am not able to follow them back and check on them though!
What state are they in before they "become" like that probably?

#10 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 02:38 PM

They probably transmigrate in a few different ways,and enjoy the fact that human beings can't follow what they are doing. I have seen entities I know doing something a bit like having children, and something a bit like an amoeba splitting to form an additional entity, but that may just be what I thought I saw. Only they know what they really did.

In the case of an egregore there are human beings involved who believe they are developing an entity. So at some point it must acquire a soul. There isn't any agreement among the people who do it about what happens- they each have their own theory. For example, The Cusp said above that he thinks Ino is Janus. I don't agree with that but he's entitled to his own interpretation. Both of us belong to DKMU and in the days before we joined, the group made ten egregores. So you would think it would be important to have agreement- but there isn't any!

What I was suggesting in my original comment was that the soul starts off in an older entity and then moves into the new egregore. But then of course, there are cases like Inanna and Astaroth, as has been mentioned already. It doesn't seem to be one soul or two souls as it would be with us, but rather different aspects who are each a personality in themselves and possibly have a collective soul. As I said before, they enjoy the fact that we can't follow the process.
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#11 Nightingale86

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 02:58 AM

Well everything's an egregore. So yes the 72 are technically egregores if you follow the "everything is an egregore because we think it into existence, thus everything is an egregore" theory. However it appears there are creators after creators.

#12 Next

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 09:41 PM

Sounds like he was getting hung up on differentiation

It's all real

#13 Next

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 09:55 PM

Put another way, if you're a counterfeit, you will only be able to afford counterfeits.

#14 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 09:45 AM

Koetting wouldn't want anyone to think he was a counterfeit. When he speaks about following entities back home and finding out that they are egregores, he is probably claiming to have 'discernment of spirits'- knowing which ones are genuine and which ones are impersonating one another. People who favour a Christian and biblical approach often talk about this, and usually they mean discerning good spirits from evil ones, but there's also the case of discerning 'man-made' ones.

I used to use the term 'man-made' quite a bit but I don't use it any more because I believe all the soul essences have been somewhere else before they enter into something a human is shaping. But I wouldn't claim to have discernment of spirits myself, only an interest in exploring around the subject as I did in this particular discussion.When I went through Ben Rowe's system I skipped the last two parts because it seemed to be stuff that you learn in a proper lodge, like various signs you give the spirit to make sure they are who they say they are.
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#15 Velotak

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 03:59 AM

View PostRofocale, on 23 September 2016 - 06:38 AM, said:

Lately I've been pondering on which of the 72 demons listed in the grimoire are actual demons and which are simply egregores or thoughforms. When I say actual demons, what I'm referring to are ancient entities pre-existing humanity itself.Is it simply a matter of opinion which category different entities fall under or is there a method for determining this. I believe I once watched a video in which EA Koetting explained that after dismissing the demon from an evocation he would follow the entity back to the astral plane using soul/astral travel and would find that there would be what appeared similar to smoke in the demons place when it was an egregore and conversely, he would find an actual entity residing there when it was a real demon.

I find these posts relevant:

View PostNightingale86, on 01 February 2017 - 02:58 AM, said:

Well everything's an egregore. So yes the 72 are technically egregores if you follow the "everything is an egregore because we think it into existence, thus everything is an egregore" theory. However it appears there are creators after creators.

View PostNext, on 07 February 2017 - 09:41 PM, said:

Sounds like he was getting hung up on differentiation

It's all real

As my experience agrees. Everything and everyone has a creator, even humans, and by that we too are egregores. It is a useless term that doesn't have any real weight or support in spiritual reality. Everything, after all, can be found somewhere.

In order to actually identify and find the creator of a spirit, however, all you have to do is find the "signature"- a pattern of energy that is usually just off-base from the entity itself. Though, with powerful creators, come powerful creations, and the likelihood of discovering such a signature is low in high-powered entities.

View PostImperial Arts, on 25 September 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

the whole thing is worthless if you do not intend to become better, bigger, more powerful, or better off in life. Calling demons just to ask them about demons is a waste of time. Ask for things that are useful to know and useful to have done for you.

This is incredibly true. Most spirits, by nature, are practical organisms- very few exist for no reason at all, and it is arguable that even that is a reason for existence. Wasting their time- and yours- by useless questions you know aren't something you need to know, or a paradox you simply cannot accept, lowers your overall status to many spirits. It is bad to be an annoyance, but it is incredibly useful to have "eyes on the other side", on both aspects of the ritual (summoner and summoned).

Concern yourself with practicality, not paradoxes.

Regarding the latter, the best way to deal with them, to quote Rick Sanchez, is "don't think about it".

#16 Jastiv

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 12:20 AM

They are all real demons. They can work through people without the person being aware of demons or caring one way or the other about them.
Someone might say they are all in your head, but they could be described as being part of you, part of other people, and also part of everything else.

Egregores on the other hand only exist so long as people pay attention to them and put energy into them. As soon as people stop giving them energy or attention, they cease to exisit.

#17 Lumpino

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 05:56 AM

In ancient Egypt was 72 accomplices of a god Set. And god Set was god of planet Mercury, therefore he is often displayed on the bow of the boat Ra.





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