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About Lucid Dreams...


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#1 Lazarus Benedict

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 11:57 PM

...One thing that I've learned from all the lucid dreams I've had, it's that everything requires your attention to exist.
It's not the flesh I'm after, but the howling ghost within...

#2 TheCusp

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 02:09 AM

Posted Image
“Come in close. Closer. Because the more you think you see, the easier it’ll be to fool you. Because what is seeing? You’re looking, but what you’re really doing is filtering, interpreting, searching for meaning. My job? To take that most precious of gifts you give me, your attention, and use it against you.” - Now You See Me

#3 The Geometer

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 12:43 PM

Well
That's a broad statement to make.
Certainly, things in the waking world don't require your attention to exist.
I'm fairly certain that you haven't been paying attention to me all day all night and all seconds throughout. And yet, despite you, I exist.

In dreams, even, this might not be always true.
Sometimes, the more you try to ignore something, and shift your attention away from something
the more it comes, larger, and more attention grabbing than ever.

And also, sometimes, you cannot help but pay attention
like that lady across the street with the butt that goes on for days.

#4 TheCusp

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 09:53 PM

It's always true in dreams, and it applies more often than not in the waking world.

Just because you focus on a real world object does not mean you grasp it's true nature. That only activates internal representations, and those require your attention to exist. (Technically they're always there, but the require attention to become active)


The next thing you'll learn about dreams is the more attention you give something, the more related detail it creates. This is what causes all nightmares.
“Come in close. Closer. Because the more you think you see, the easier it’ll be to fool you. Because what is seeing? You’re looking, but what you’re really doing is filtering, interpreting, searching for meaning. My job? To take that most precious of gifts you give me, your attention, and use it against you.” - Now You See Me

#5 voidgazing

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 10:31 PM

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Certainly, things in the waking world don't require your attention to exist.

Why are you certain about that? It certainly can't be proven satisfactorily, and the idea is useless in practical terms, which can be seen in both relativistic and quantum physics.

Existence can perhaps be modeled better than a binary 'does/does not' system. Instead we look at it in terms of probability- the greater the probability of an interaction between two entities, the more existential potential they have towards one another. We could call it a measure of existential distance, of degree.

There is a word that does not exist for you right now. It is not at maximum distance anymore, because I'm thinking about telling you what it looks like, and because a future version of you has a high probability of reading this thread and seeing this word of power

EYEDEGOM

which now exists in a positive fashion, you are paying attention to it, maybe wondering what it means. There is now a literal analogue of that word in your brain. It has been physically realized, much like a 3D printer can physically realize an object.

Similarly, I can tell you about this girl I know, I can describe her very well. She will then have an increased probability of existing for you (which you will note is different than her probability for existing for me). I can show you photos and writing and she will be closer still, etc.
This is a postcard sent from the dining room of the HMS Russel's Teapot. Wish you were here- the band is spot on tonight, and we're having "all the way down" turtle soup!

#6 TheCusp

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 01:09 PM

There was a thread on another site asking about the alleged law where the illuminati have to divulge to the public what they are going to do to them beforehand. It actually does make sense in context of VoidGazing's post.

Edited by TheCusp, 24 September 2016 - 01:10 PM.

“Come in close. Closer. Because the more you think you see, the easier it’ll be to fool you. Because what is seeing? You’re looking, but what you’re really doing is filtering, interpreting, searching for meaning. My job? To take that most precious of gifts you give me, your attention, and use it against you.” - Now You See Me

#7 The Geometer

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 10:40 PM

View Postvoidgazing, on 22 September 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

Why are you certain about that? It certainly can't be proven satisfactorily, and the idea is useless in practical terms, which can be seen in both relativistic and quantum physics.

Existence can perhaps be modeled better than a binary 'does/does not' system. Instead we look at it in terms of probability- the greater the probability of an interaction between two entities, the more existential potential they have towards one another. We could call it a measure of existential distance, of degree.

There is a word that does not exist for you right now. It is not at maximum distance anymore, because I'm thinking about telling you what it looks like, and because a future version of you has a high probability of reading this thread and seeing this word of power

EYEDEGOM

which now exists in a positive fashion, you are paying attention to it, maybe wondering what it means. There is now a literal analogue of that word in your brain. It has been physically realized, much like a 3D printer can physically realize an object.

Similarly, I can tell you about this girl I know, I can describe her very well. She will then have an increased probability of existing for you (which you will note is different than her probability for existing for me). I can show you photos and writing and she will be closer still, etc.

I understand the desire behind wishing only what you pay attention to is real, and nothing else. I do. It means that, despite all adversity, all one has to do is "not" pay attention to obstacles and they will disappear.... But as you know, as I know, and as anybody who has ever been alive can attest to, shit happens.
Now, "shit happens" might not be necessarily a philosophical statement which describes the thought that there are things which, pay attention to or not, will become very real and likely unfortunate event. Of course, that's sort of looking at the glass half empty.
So, I contest again, but I will digress, I should know better than to say anything is certain. That's sort of arrogant of me to say. Of course, nothing is really certain, unless it is in degrees of certainty, but even so, I will say this also:
One could say that anything you pay attention could also be said not to exist, ESPECIALLY in terms of lucid dreams. Of course, you could say, the things in your dreams which you pay attention to are the only real things to you. And I would have to say that is fairly accurate. That does not mean, necessarily, that they are actually factually real, just that they are real to you. That is an important distinction, in my version of reality, different from your version of reality, different from OPs version of reality. We could easily surmise from all this that there is in fact no such thing as"real" and the only thing that is "real" is what you feel is real, or what you pay attention to. That is a dangerous mode of thinking.
Because, firstly, we are a social animal. There has to always be a consensus on at least certain things which are for definitely definite. Sure, you might say that actually points to the statement "only the things I pay attention to are real", but actually, I feel that it is more of a statement of Natural Law. A law which through the course of advancement is fluid and can change depending on it's circumstance.
Circumstance is the very thing you never saw coming, coming, and it existed despite anyone ever paying attention to it.

#8 TheCusp

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 11:03 PM

There's what you can focus your attention on, and how completely you can focus your attention. According to the CC lore, if you can focus completely on a different location, you can wake up somewhere other than where you lay down to sleep. Or where he jumps off a cliff. The cliff and death waiting at the bottom are real, but if you can move completely to a location where those variables don't matter, apparently it works. I've yet to pull it off, , but I see no reason why it shouldn't work.

I've fought another dreamer who was able to withstand everything I threw at him. Finally I figured out he was just ignoring my attacks, and I learned to do it too, out of necessity. Then I had to become the DreamFather, and come up win an attack you can't ignore. It became less about the fighting and more like an elaborate game of "you're fly's undone, made you look".

The point is, you get diverging realities existing in the same space in a shared dream. The objective reality isn't as important as the frame of reference of the individual. It's hard to outright state that applies to the waking world as well, but it does fit more often than not.
“Come in close. Closer. Because the more you think you see, the easier it’ll be to fool you. Because what is seeing? You’re looking, but what you’re really doing is filtering, interpreting, searching for meaning. My job? To take that most precious of gifts you give me, your attention, and use it against you.” - Now You See Me

#9 The Geometer

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 10:15 AM

View PostTheCusp, on 25 September 2016 - 11:03 PM, said:

There's what you can focus your attention on, and how completely you can focus your attention. According to the CC lore, if you can focus completely on a different location, you can wake up somewhere other than where you lay down to sleep. Or where he jumps off a cliff. The cliff and death waiting at the bottom are real, but if you can move completely to a location where those variables don't matter, apparently it works. I've yet to pull it off, , but I see no reason why it shouldn't work.

I've fought another dreamer who was able to withstand everything I threw at him. Finally I figured out he was just ignoring my attacks, and I learned to do it too, out of necessity. Then I had to become the DreamFather, and come up win an attack you can't ignore. It became less about the fighting and more like an elaborate game of "you're fly's undone, made you look".

The point is, you get diverging realities existing in the same space in a shared dream. The objective reality isn't as important as the frame of reference of the individual. It's hard to outright state that applies to the waking world as well, but it does fit more often than not.

No reason for it not to work, huh?
Go ahead then, try it, jump off a cliff and see.
When I hear the *splat* noise, I'll know you were full of it.

Also, I have to kind of wonder why you're so hostile to objective reality. I mean, you might not think you are, but when you're saying "objective reality" isn't as important as "frame of reference" then, it's hard for objective reality not to take offense to that. I'm buddies with him, trust me, he's talking pure shit right now. I'll take him to the bar and calm him down but easy with that.

I, again, have to disagree here. I've practiced lucid dreaming (on and off) since 2008, and while I agree, yes, in the dream world it is possible to move "through" space as it were, and share dream space. It's hard, of course to experiment with it and know for certainly certain, but I digress, dream world is a separate subject from the real world. In the real world, you will die if you do not pay attention to your surroundings. In the real world, you will die if you fall off a cliff. In the dream world, you will survive if you do not pay attention to your surroundings. In the dream world, more often than not, you will wake up before you hit the ground when you fall off a cliff.
Dream world =/= real world, is my point. And if you think, "naw, they're like almost identical mate" then you are truly fucked and beyond any hope of anything.
In the dream world some things work that don't work in the real world, like the paying attention to it thing.
But let me tell you, if you're out in the grass, and you ain't paying attention to that 30 foot long snake that bout to pop up on you and gobble you whole
well, fuck what can I tell you, you should have just "not paid attention to it".

Edited by The Geometer, 26 September 2016 - 10:22 AM.


#10 The Geometer

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 10:24 AM

I just realized, you meant Carlos Castaneda when you said CC. okay, now your whole post is being categorized as "misunderstood" because I'm assuming you were only talking about dreams and not reality.

#11 TheCusp

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 11:46 PM

View PostThe Geometer, on 26 September 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

I just realized, you meant Carlos Castaneda when you said CC. okay, now your whole post is being categorized as "misunderstood" because I'm assuming you were only talking about dreams and not reality.

Nope, meant reality. The cliff might be a little extreme, but as a magician, surely you've had moments of pressing need that spurred you onto greater feats of magic? I'll send out invites when I'm ready to take the leap.
“Come in close. Closer. Because the more you think you see, the easier it’ll be to fool you. Because what is seeing? You’re looking, but what you’re really doing is filtering, interpreting, searching for meaning. My job? To take that most precious of gifts you give me, your attention, and use it against you.” - Now You See Me





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