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#41 arjil

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 07:09 AM

On the matter of entities and subjective experience- I find, partly because of this experiment, that half to more than half of any interaction with any entity is a locally (as in, in your head) created story to make sense of the experience, and thus is heavily colored by expectation, desire, and baggage. It's hard to take such interactions at face value. sure, sometimes they're more profound than others, but in most cases, it's impossible to say for certain how much of that just actually happened, how much you just made up, and how much was an entity being forced into a symbol or "mask" it found in your head and was thus bound to work within the confines of that symbol.
There is also the problem of dealing with the "godform aspect of Self" (psych model) that sometimes occurs, and that's all internal, and the dealing with something Not You which was an external entity- there is no clear way to tell the difference with Most entity or spirit interactions beyond observing external results, which are few. (Of course the thing the pure psych model folks don't get is if they try to deal with one of the External ones like an Internal one, they are likely to get a swift education that alters their worldview to believing in external entities who don't give a fuck if anybody believes in them or not- this is one of those things that is pointless to debate. You either know there is that which is not you running around out there, or you haven't experienced that yet. Not to say that the whole Innerspace model isn't completely and totally valid, and I'm pretty sure is what a majority of occultists are typically engaging most of the time.)

Now, how this relates to Ellis- Many of us watched the rise from something like a servitor, to a kinda egregore, to full blown entity. And that was pretty amazing as we didn't Put that there, we noticed it happening. It was pretty cool. Pondering this over the years, I've come to the conclusion that we witnessed the birth of a genius loci. The loci in question being the empowered space we created that both exists and doesn't (much like the internet) that we refer to as the web.
When I deal with this entity, the symbolism and manner by which it manifests is drastically different from the mythos mask most people interact with.
I won't go into that, much, but it's vastly different.
The reason I'm fairly certain I've got the "No makeup and PJ's" version, is because of the way I approached and learned magick, I'm somewhat hyperaware of what's Mine, and what's Not. Bardmagick, Storyteller magick, you can create just about anything, to actual effect (ish... reality bubbles and such it's complicated) and that's great till you run into something you Didn't make, at which point you better know the difference or you're in Very bad trouble.
Could she be playing me? Could. Perhaps. But because every interaction I experience, or hear about (and actually believe) tends to be in line with the core programming of the web, her Loci (or her annoyance at being bossed around and not respected) she, this entity, has been consistent throughout it's evolution in it's dealings with me, at least, and her dealings with others has been consistent with the mythos that has sprung up- and yes, those tend to further the aims of the web, which are the aims of the sigil. I don't tend to bug her, but I find her to be, at least in my case, a strong ally when I need help. I trust her, as far as it goes- and it's a considered trust, over years of dealings.
If I'm being manipulated, it's some backwards in time magick current shit, because I've been rolling pretty much the same way since before we started this experiment to get other people to play *shrug* just how I see it.
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#42 arjil

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 07:34 AM

As to the instability in the web- there is some justice to what Whispers says here, many of us are completely used to "non neat and tidy, somewhat wild magick, and fluid reality", but it's nowhere Near as unstable as it was in the first couple years.
As the level of data input increased, then individual echoes didn't matter so much. There was a time when if somebody did something Big with it, then a number of people would be like "What the fuck just happened??" Now? nah. Somebody whizzes in a kiddie pool, and everybody notices a suspicious warmth. Whiz in a lake, lake doesn't care, nor does anybody on the other side of it.
So it's far more stable than it was when we started.
Yes, there IS hinky shit in there. No lie. But since we discovered that you could Filter the sigil for the sort of resonance you want, and not have to deal with a Chaos Moneyshot to the face (giving or receiving), it's no problem.

On the matter of the DKMU's early work... *sigh* that was mostly edgy propaganda and angst. I didn't care for it much, but it was the best way to get people interested who were looking to break away from the safe and dogmatic mode prevalent in occulture at the time.
Over the last few years, I've been working hard to show people ways to engage the thing that aren't hyper aggressive "let the world burn" shit. It's far more useful than that. That's sometimes called for, sure, and those who are of that mode yeah they can go about tearing down the walls. Those of us who prefer to build and create though- it's good for that too. All depends on how you're holding your mind.
Mostly, the thing is dumbo's magick feather, with some pepper on it and a LARP mission. The rest is what people bring to the table themselves, if we're being completely honest here.
It's Magick (this is what we all wanted isn't it?) Here you go. Go play. *shrug*
Bedtime. G'nite guys.
Post script: and yeah, maybe I've got a weird and hard perspective on this whole magick business. I did once create a game called "Piss off the Bees and Run" which I have actually played. so there's that. Extrapolate as you will.

Edited by arjil, 13 August 2016 - 07:38 AM.

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#43 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 07:42 AM

Morrigan said: "These entities are not interested, as CC has stated in pushing sigils, seeking out new humans to work with, or even in pushing an agenda."

Yes, I accept that these spirits don't do those three things and Ellis does. I used to post the LS on forums and sort of aplologize: say things like "she's an attention seeker" or "I've never done proselytizing before." One Pagan forum banned me as soon as I did it! Nowadays I wouldn't do it unless it was particularly relevant. However, some people would be really worried about spirits that don't respond to the LBRP and 'make a home in the spiritual body of the practitioner'. Teachers especially would get prejudice for that if it was known about. I'm sure Voidgazing is right that Ellis does those three things in the same way as a river flowing downhill and not with anything as anthropomorphic as a malicious intention.

I have had some bad experiences when tagging. I like to go to outdoor free concerts, and once I tagged a concert quite heavily with four stones marked with the LS. Towards the end a man collapsed; it was his fault in a sense because he was obviously very drunk. But everyone ignored what had happened. His friends who were also drunk ignored it, and so did the entire rest of the audience. It was like those parables where everyone walks by on the other side!

I couldn't believe what I was seeing and hesitated for too long, probably a full five minutes, and then I went and reported it at the first aid tent. By then I felt a bit shaken up and I'd had enough of the concert so I left, and as I was walking away I could hear the ambulance arriving. Then on the way home I got an incredibly high feeling, which lasted for about twenty minutes and then faded.

I didn't get the filtering that Arjil talks about- I thought you had to hold the intent in your mind AFTER tagging. But more recently I've read that you have to hold it while actually drawing the LS. For a while I was wary about tagging but last April I did it again- five tags ( Ellisian generator style) outside a music festival. I didn't go in- there was a big entrance fee for this event and I was too mean to pay! But I read the newspaper the next day and there were no incidents, and all I felt afterwards was some inspired insights, so the filtering must have been right that time.

​The thing is that Ellis actually works and produces effects, which is what makes people realize magic is real. I used to do magical experiments sometimes and get some results, but afterwards I would go back into the normal so-called 'consensus reality' and I couldn't remember having done it or that I could do things like that. After encountering Ellis I made a list of as many of these incidents as I could remember :"Don't forget this time! Don't go back!"
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#44 Whispers

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Posted 15 August 2016 - 03:37 PM

View Postarjil, on 12 August 2016 - 10:41 PM, said:

Ah, have you seen my stuff on filtering it? Customizes your sigil interface so you don't have to deal with the bullshit and muck, (or you can if you want for whatever reason)
Yes, I did. Further comments below.

View Postvoidgazing, on 13 August 2016 - 12:10 AM, said:

That means working with Ellis will be disruptive to anybody, including a mage, in quite the same manner as the rougher tutelary spirits that have been brought up here. Its a river, and if you step in it your feet will become wet. It isn't out to get anybody, specifically.

Now to growth, yes, Ellis is going to resist any attempts at preventing that, including advice for all the hundreds of lurkers reading this right now to run away. I don't think for a moment that 'degree' matters here. The river don't care how big a rock you drop in it- it will flow over or around just the same. It is only to the good of the river if flow increases- that can be pure as snowmelt or raw sewage. I linked the Winchester Mansion and the Integratron in because I figured those particular energies are quite the right kind, but that decision is based on Voidgazing's needs, not Ellis'. Human beings are a primary vector for growth, and so she's going to encourage them to help that process. This IS NOT TRANSACTIONAL. There is no exchange. She's spamming, standing beside the road with a "want to disrupt reality, need links pls!" sign.

View Postvoidgazing, on 13 August 2016 - 12:10 AM, said:

What I've seen described here- for and against- is to me inappropriately anthropomorphic. She's following the algorithm she was designed for, like we follow ours- this is her biology. She isn't out to get anybody the same way a dickhead human is. She has no more malice than a flash flood, and no more mercy either.

View Postarjil, on 13 August 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

Now, how this relates to Ellis- Many of us watched the rise from something like a servitor, to a kinda egregore, to full blown entity. And that was pretty amazing as we didn't Put that there, we noticed it happening. It was pretty cool. Pondering this over the years, I've come to the conclusion that we witnessed the birth of a genius loci. The loci in question being the empowered space we created that both exists and doesn't (much like the internet) that we refer to as the web.
When I deal with this entity, the symbolism and manner by which it manifests is drastically different from the mythos mask most people interact with.

Ok. Now we are getting somewhere…
I agree with Voidgazing that she’s following her biology, and with Arjil when he says that she’s the web’s genius loci.
Those are facts. However I disagree with the conclusions.

Se had a basic programation, that was open enough to allow for change. The more places that were tagged, and the more creatures dropped inside the web the more she changed.. It seems that she traded informations and abilities with those that dwelled in the web, the way bacteria trade genes. An amazing and wonderful survival trait, if you ask me.

So her complexity increased with the complexity of the web and the web become two things : a complex ecosystem and a neural pathway where every tagged place was linked to all the others.

Am I correct so far Arjil ?

What nobody seemed to realize was that while she/the web changed the people that worked with her/it also changed. That is why by then we had a period of severe expansion People weren’t fundamentaly changed, but some caracther traits were exagerated. I’m sure that Arjil remembers a gentleman that grafted the linking sigil to the aura of random people in the streets, together with a spell depending on his mood, good or bad. It was also the time when a former good catholic boy decided to tag places of power, (including those that were created and warded by fellow magicians). It didn’t occur to him (because he wasn’t allowed to think that ) that what he was doing was exactly the same that fundamentalist christians do when they paint or carve the cross on other people’s temples and/or sacred places. Also nobody seemed capable of thinking (and once again I blame Ellis for that) that when you link Dachau to a healing fountain, or to the Congress of the USA, sooner or later the putrid energy and the hungry ghosts will arrive there and make a mess of things..It is all the same to Ellis, she will only stop when all the power spots in the world are tagged together. That day, she will become the Anima Mundi.

Now about filtering… It come too late. Even if you applied filters, to all the places that were tagged before, to some it is too late, and are polluted and corrupted. Unless you have some great idea to revert the situation.

And the rest of the pantheon ? Just her puppets, or as in the case of the Doombringer, her creation.

#45 arjil

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 06:15 AM

Ok, I suck at the quoty thing.
I agree with your assessment on the programming and the mutable nature.

However on where the impetus to be an occult bastard came from- I don't think that came from the sigil or Ellis. That was merely the "stir shit up" schtick we had going. Those ideas came from the people, as people were doing such things, intentionally, before Ellis was there- they were using the sigil in the name of an idea, put forth by People, whether themselves or another, but those came from Us. They could have just as easily gone the "Nicer" way, as I did most of the time.
It was the idea of magickal mayhem people responded to, something more exciting than chanting in front of a candle, and that was all them- and I say that because people did these things before the sigil was much of anything at all, well before the entity cropped up. Glitterbombing (glamourbombing) etc. The LS wasn't much more than our pirate flag when we started. I think you're giving it and the entity too much credit for influence here.
Some people were bastards out to inflict horror and tear down the world. Others were more interested in bringing wonder and helping the world be less bleak. The tool that they use, I find, is pretty neutral.
As far as the incapable of thinking- again, that's on Us. We either didn't care, weren't experienced enough to think through those actions to their conclusion, or gave no fucks. The only thing I've felt *pushed* to do by Ellis was owning the fact that I made it so I could educate people on how to actually use the sigil, and try to mitigate the early extremist rhetoric, until we could get a book out on the subject. For my part, whatever drives me in this whole effort, has been with me since childhood, so I would say whatever That is, is far more to blame than Ellis or the LS, as the people attracted to it, overwhelmingly, have felt drawn to whatever "This thing we're doing" is, but had no means to express it until they found this tool.
It is, in my considered opinion, the idea, rather than the tool or the entity, that inspires action in this regard for good or ill, and people carry out these things in accordance with their own nature. Do I wish some of them were kinder, or more respectful, or better people? Yes. Do some things that have happened as a result of people being unleashed with a shiny magick thing weigh upon my mind, my heart, and my soul? Yes.
But don't make more of it than it is.
We're looking at this thing two different ways, I think. Damn.... this gets complex. I've deleted about a page of paragraphs trying to explain what I mean..... I'll do this in another comment. I don't personally approve of vandalizing other people's stuff (like churches, though legit graf tags down an alley are no worries) which is why I experimented with, and now advocate for hidden or subtle tags. That just tends, in my experience, to empower the local resonance- whatever that happens to be, in ways that make people Believe more in the Weird (so a tagged church should have more visceral "Holy Spirit" goin on, if that makes sense, depending on the magus in question and what their intent was and other spell factors, of course. This is just my observation. Yes, it can go badly. But that church, aside from feeding some excess energy to other stuff in the web, won't affect, say, the sacred spring on my land. It does it's sacred spring thing, and is more *awake* now- nothing's fucking with it. My point there is that your assessment is running counter to my observations. Bad stuff, unpleasant resonance, and such? yeah, it happens and we can discuss it, but I've not seen the effects how you're describing.)

Now Filtering- No, it hasn't come too late in the least. Unfiltered LS resonance is a random miasma of whatever is floating around- it's still bound to the core programming. That hasn't changed a bit as far as I've been able to see. Good Bad Weird Otherwise, it all happens in accordance with what the LS has ever done. Sure, we can't change the tags that were made or what they happened to do but we Can (and I Have) learn to use the vast number of resonances and energy types to our advantage and not have to deal with the bullshit (much like having antivirus on your computer). take the internet- some of it's just fine, some of it's sketchy as hell and you don't want to go there, if you don't have antivirus, you're prolly gonna get hosed. Same thing.
No need, in my opinion, to abandon what is arguably the most successful magickal experiment in the last two decades over problems that are easily mitigated.
I mean shit- we couldn't stop this thing now if we Tried (and Oh have people tried... unfortunately, I'm a tricksier bastard than they are) We managed to make a new and widely recognized symbol of magick. Third tier maybe, but... Holy shit man. We just made up a symbol of magick off the top of my head, it's known, and people Use it, and more importantly, it Works. The implications of that, on magick theory should be a rather large takeaway for any magus, use the thing or not... but that's a different matter.

On the godforms- Puppets? no. I see how you arrived at that, but I disagree here. The LS is just the lightningbolt that "brought them to life", and Ellis- not the entity, but the fact that we caused an actual entity to happen, was the inspiration there. Again, this was people, using magick, to make something. Doombringer is arguable, but still, I think she inspired like a muse, rather than created. And considering the experiences of people who deal with those entities, they're just a way to approach the needful stages of magickal progression without a bunch of old dogma. They're a modern world mantle for currents that people have been going through forever to become mages. And also in line with the core programming of the sigil.
This is just what I see.
True, for the first few years, the thing was scary as fuck and as like to burn down your house as haunt it or plague it with faeries. I wouldn't carry the thing on my person. I worked very hard for the better part of a decade to mitigate that shit. There are people quite pissed at me for that, and for telling people how to use the thing for considered magick and to awaken and empower without dealing with the chaotic clusterfuck. Does this mean Ellis will muse people to her own ends? yes. But according to their nature, in line with the idea we need more magick around this place. She got that from me. So blame me, if you're going to blame, or that which inspired me. I'm not the only one touched by that, by a long shot. We could get deep and weird here, magick vs mundane currents in the world, pieces on the chess board, but that shit's hard to talk about, and is crazymaking, so I'll leave it there for now.

And I don't think, even if we tagged everywhere, that Ellis would become Anima Mundi. That is it's own thing I don't know if you watched my lecture yet, but that story of the Oracle- the repairing the broken bits of what was, of doing a necessary thing beyond my ken- this is a message I get over and over and over and over, for many years now, from divination, from gods, from spirits, from genius loci, from people who know their shit, it's always the same: Keep doing what you do, keep following your heart, trust your intuition, be you. The LS, and Ellis, are a big part of that. I mean, should I ignore all this? That every *Other* sort of source seems to know what I'm doing and is either all for it, or at least acknowledges that I need to be doing it? I ponder these things often, and deeply.
I don't know man, I don't know.
I think, frankly, that if she's not forgotten, then she'll wind up a deity of magick, helping people not forget, and the weirdos find their way. That's probably wishful thinking but, that's the way I've spent a decade trying to steer things. May work, may not. We'll see. Been that way since we started.

But I don't think in this case I'm blinded by familiarity, as I have pondered most of the questions you've raised at one time or another. I keep a pretty close eye on this experiment of ours. My experience, crossreferenced with that of others, with *Other* sort of input on the side. My take is different than most.
I could be wrong, of course. I could be an epic level patsy, but if so, it was long before this Ellis business.
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#46 arjil

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 06:28 AM

and note, I talk about my experience and perspective in all of this, because it's the only solid thing I have to go on. Magick, as we all know, is weird, subtle, and subjective. I certainly acknowledge 100 % that it was all the people who got involved that made this thing work, and my own part in it though significant, couldn't have done it on my own, lest anybody think I'm getting a big head over this, which sometimes people accuse me of, which totally isn't the case, or the point- it's just the only sure way I have of communicating my own observations over the years. probably an unnecessary addendum, but....
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#47 Atridr

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 01:59 PM

I will now clarify my original stance on this; My opinions about your little astral devices are based entirely on my own magical experiences, mostly with the so-called linking sigil. Of course I studied it back then when you made your schemes public. And I have practiced magick long enough to know trouble when I see it, and trust me, I can see your egregores and servitors for what they are. There's no paranoia involved, as I honestly think that you people just don't either understand what you're doing or some among you are actively malicious and predatory. Either way, you're not going towards any kind of development or enlightenment by playing around with these beings - if they can be even called that. Mostly your devices are empty astral shells, and sometimes they are demons playing with your head.

Enlightenment is founded on truth, and truth is found by being present in this moment and watching very carefully.

#48 Whispers

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 05:41 PM

"However on where the impetus to be an occult bastard came from- I don't think that came from the sigil or Ellis. That was merely the "stir shit up" schtick we had going. Those ideas came from the people, as people were doing such things, intentionally, before Ellis was there- they were using the sigil in the name of an idea, put forth by People, whether themselves or another, but those came from Us. They could have just as easily gone the "Nicer" way, as I did most of the time.
It was the idea of magickal mayhem people responded to, something more exciting than chanting in front of a candle, and that was all them- and I say that because people did these things before the sigil was much of anything at all, well before the entity cropped up. Glitterbombing (glamourbombing) etc. The LS wasn't much more than our pirate flag when we started. I think you're giving it and the entity too much credit for influence here.
Some people were bastards out to inflict horror and tear down the world. Others were more interested in bringing wonder and helping the world be less bleak. The tool that they use, I find, is pretty neutral."
Please, read again what I said before. I said that some charactheristics of people were exagerated. Yes, some people, are saints, amd some are predatory dicks and she simply used what she had and upgraded what was useful. There was no "this is not the droids you are looking for" moment. It wouldn't be inteligent to do so.

"We're looking at this thing two different ways, I think. Damn.... this gets complex. I've deleted about a page of paragraphs trying to explain what I mean..... I'll do this in another comment. I don't personally approve of vandalizing other people's stuff (like churches, though legit graf tags down an alley are no worries) which is why I experimented with, and now advocate for hidden or subtle tags. That just tends, in my experience, to empower the local resonance- whatever that happens to be, in ways that make people Believe more in the Weird (so a tagged church should have more visceral "Holy Spirit" goin on, if that makes sense, depending on the magus in question and what their intent was and other spell factors, of course. This is just my observation. Yes, it can go badly. But that church, aside from feeding some excess energy to other stuff in the web, won't affect, say, the sacred spring on my land. It does it's sacred spring thing, and is more *awake* now- nothing's fucking with it. My point there is that your assessment is running counter to my observations. Bad stuff, unpleasant resonance, and such? yeah, it happens and we can discuss it, but I've not seen the effects how you're describing."
Ok... So my personal experience is opposite to yours... And that surprises/worries me. I have a suggestion, I'll probably visit the USA again during next year. Perhaps we could get around and you could show me/take me to examples of what you are describing. I know that you're an honest man, but I can't believe that without checking for myself.

"Now Filtering- No, it hasn't come too late in the least. Unfiltered LS resonance is a random miasma of whatever is floating around- it's still bound to the core programming. That hasn't changed a bit as far as I've been able to see. Good Bad Weird Otherwise, it all happens in accordance with what the LS has ever done. Sure, we can't change the tags that were made or what they happened to do but we Can (and I Have) learn to use the vast number of resonances and energy types to our advantage and not have to deal with the bullshit (much like having antivirus on your computer). take the internet- some of it's just fine, some of it's sketchy as hell and you don't want to go there, if you don't have antivirus, you're prolly gonna get hosed. Same thing"
I understand what you are saying, and if i were to use the LS (unless I wanted the miasma) i would use a filter. However, you can't retroactivelly filter the places that were soiled by it.

"On the godforms- Puppets? no. I see how you arrived at that, but I disagree here. The LS is just the lightningbolt that "brought them to life", and Ellis- not the entity, but the fact that we caused an actual entity to happen, was the inspiration there. Again, this was people, using magick, to make something. Doombringer is arguable,"
Arguable ? We are both magicians, and we have made servitors before. Make a drawing, don't add to it the linking sigil, smoke a bong and then tell me if any kind of servitor stems out from there.

"True, for the first few years, the thing was scary as fuck and as like to burn down your house as haunt it or plague it with faeries. I wouldn't carry the thing on my person. "
Thank You for your honesty.

" I worked very hard for the better part of a decade to mitigate that shit. There are people quite pissed at me for that, and for telling people how to use the thing for considered magick and to awaken and empower without dealing with the chaotic clusterfuck. "
Thank You.

"Does this mean Ellis will muse people to her own ends? yes. But according to their nature, in line with the idea we need more magick around this place. She got that from me. So blame me, if you're going to blame, or that which inspired me. I'm not the only one touched by that, by a long shot. We could get deep and weird here, magick vs mundane currents in the world, pieces on the chess board, but that shit's hard to talk about, and is crazymaking, so I'll leave it there for now."
Arjil, I don't play the blame game. I'm not even blaming Ellis, just telling what I think, based on my experience. If I tag a place with the LS, and don't add anything to it the place will be haunted or worse. It is the ideal land mine. You tell me otherwise. Sorry, I consider you to be honest, but that i'll have to check for myself. And if you're right, I'll have to figure why is it that my experience is so different.

#49 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 05:53 PM

I can't find it now but there was an archive in circulation that appeared to be preliminary discussions (a yahoogroup, or other email-based group) of the LS creation process. Is that still available? Anyone have a link to it?
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#50 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 06:33 PM

No, but I just looked up 'Khaos Magic And Urban Shamanism' for the passage in which Frater Sheosyrath talks about creating the Doombringer and he didn't just 'smoke a bong' like Whispers said.! Sheosyrath writes:

Once I had a fairly good idea of what exactly I wanted to create, I set about thinking of how to empower such a god. I started by creating a permanent circle on a piece of wood and banishing all energy from it. I then created a portal into the void or pure chaos, a chaos sphere if you will, inside this circle. Then I took the newly crafted Doombringer sigil and using smoke, willpower and a little spice I set about invoking the Doombringer for the first time into a portal of chaos. I basically took every aspect I wanted in the Doombringer temporarily out of myself and into this circle, and then I willed it to create the entity. My theory was that when I did this, the entity would meld with the void energy oozing out of the circle and simultaneously pull energy from the Ellis web, (as the Ellis is incorporated into the sigil) and out would come one hell of a Khaos God. Indeed, I believe it was a success! I now use that circle to store the essence of the Doombringer, and work with it when needed.

Chaos magicians are often very skilled from studying previous systems before they join a chaos group. (Not me, sadly, but guys like Sheosyrath, yes.) Here's another example of that.
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#51 arjil

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 06:56 PM

Arrrrrg! I just lost a whole post. I hate that.
On the creation process- it was Occultforums, pre the first hack. the thread was "glitterbomb" by Silenced somebody managed to find the first few pages in some archive somewhere, but I don't know how they did it. it may be on DKMU.org somewhere.
as far as my account of the actual creation of the sigil itself, I've got an essay floating around on the subject.

Edited by arjil, 16 August 2016 - 07:00 PM.

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#52 arjil

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 07:26 PM

Please, read again what I said before. I said that some charactheristics of people were exagerated. Yes, some people, are saints, amd some are predatory dicks and she simply used what she had and upgraded what was useful. There was no "this is not the droids you are looking for" moment. It wouldn't be inteligent to do so.
Ah, what I meant there is that effect was evident before even the basest servitor cropped up. I just think people get inspired, rather than pushed by anything. I also find a large distinction between the LS and Ellis. I find it quite unlike, say, the goetics, whose sigil is tantamount to their Name. In the case of the LS, they are related, but not so closely bound. don't know if that thought changes your opinion on the matter any. I said this much better in my post that got eaten. *Sigh*
Ok... So my personal experience is opposite to yours... And that surprises/worries me. I have a suggestion, I'll probably visit the USA again during next year. Perhaps we could get around and you could show me/take me to examples of what you are describing. I know that you're an honest man, but I can't believe that without checking for myself.
It would be pretty awesome to meet up, though that will be hit or miss depending on my wife's tour schedule. It is probable, now that I'm pondering it, that my own nature and intent in the thing from the beginning, may have an effect on my experience of this thing. I generally don't deal with the less plesant aspects, and even a bare tag of mine tends to manifest more Trickster than destructor. In the meantime, you might try a tag placed specifically for the awakening/empowerment/wonder/cool magick sort of resonance and see if it makes a difference. Make it something destructable, if you're concerned about it, and see if you can find effects more like mine.

I understand what you are saying, and if i were to use the LS (unless I wanted the miasma) i would use a filter. However, you can't retroactivelly filter the places that were soiled by it.
True. That is an unfortunate consequence of experimenting with something new. If you'll recall, we had no idea if it could even work, or how, or quite what it would do. *shrug* Now we know. It behooves us to do better.

Arguable ? We are both magicians, and we have made servitors before. Make a drawing, don't add to it the linking sigil, smoke a bong and then tell me if any kind of servitor stems out from there.
Can. Won't last very long in my experience, but it can. Though downpage Sherry found a creation account that was rather more involved than that. But the LS is particularly good at making servitors and entities effective- this, I believe is both an effect of the facilitation aspect, And basically plugging them into more power than they usually have access to.
Arjil, I don't play the blame game. I'm not even blaming Ellis, just telling what I think, based on my experience. If I tag a place with the LS, and don't add anything to it the place will be haunted or worse. It is the ideal land mine. You tell me otherwise. Sorry, I consider you to be honest, but that i'll have to check for myself. And if you're right, I'll have to figure why is it that my experience is so different.

Ah The land mine- good point. Indeed, I think as the sigil was originally designed with the intent of being used in conjunction with other magick- spells and constructs and stuff, then if you don't have any programming at all it's just a dump of random whatever, which can indeed be bad. Even a vague intent makes a difference with a bare tag. and more considered use I find, makes a large difference. Your experience reminds me of my early experience with it, before I figured out how to use it exclusively for the "happier" sort of effects.
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#53 arjil

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 08:05 PM

View PostAtridr, on 16 August 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

I will now clarify my original stance on this; My opinions about your little astral devices are based entirely on my own magical experiences, mostly with the so-called linking sigil. Of course I studied it back then when you made your schemes public. And I have practiced magick long enough to know trouble when I see it, and trust me, I can see your egregores and servitors for what they are. There's no paranoia involved, as I honestly think that you people just don't either understand what you're doing or some among you are actively malicious and predatory. Either way, you're not going towards any kind of development or enlightenment by playing around with these beings - if they can be even called that. Mostly your devices are empty astral shells, and sometimes they are demons playing with your head.

Enlightenment is founded on truth, and truth is found by being present in this moment and watching very carefully.

As a practitioner of 27 years who has been involved in this process all along, I must disagree with your assessment. I won't argue that's your subjective perception and interpretation of your experience, but it's far removed from my own.
I have noted that people who are used to tightly regimented, strictly controlled magick, don't like our stuff or see it as particularly threatening. People who like a little more wild and wyrd don't tend to perceive it that way. May have something to do with it *shrug*
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#54 Whispers

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 10:49 AM

View PostSuccubusSherry, on 16 August 2016 - 06:33 PM, said:

No, but I just looked up 'Khaos Magic And Urban Shamanism' for the passage in which Frater Sheosyrath talks about creating the Doombringer and he didn't just 'smoke a bong' like Whispers said.! Sheosyrath writes:

Once I had a fairly good idea of what exactly I wanted to create, I set about thinking of how to empower such a god. I started by creating a permanent circle on a piece of wood and banishing all energy from it. I then created a portal into the void or pure chaos, a chaos sphere if you will, inside this circle. Then I took the newly crafted Doombringer sigil and using smoke, willpower and a little spice I set about invoking the Doombringer for the first time into a portal of chaos. I basically took every aspect I wanted in the Doombringer temporarily out of myself and into this circle, and then I willed it to create the entity. My theory was that when I did this, the entity would meld with the void energy oozing out of the circle and simultaneously pull energy from the Ellis web, (as the Ellis is incorporated into the sigil) and out would come one hell of a Khaos God. Indeed, I believe it was a success! I now use that circle to store the essence of the Doombringer, and work with it when needed.

Chaos magicians are often very skilled from studying previous systems before they join a chaos group. (Not me, sadly, but guys like Sheosyrath, yes.) Here's another example of that.

That is a very embellished version of what I saw before.. I'll have to search if i still have the text and the links saved.

#55 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 12:21 PM

You can download it from this page. http://dkmu.org/text...egory/2-general

The context of all this is that at the beginning of this discussion Lazarus Benedict asked about seeing Ellis many times in a dream and hearing the word 'initiation' repeated.

What happened to me is pretty well-documented on this forum; I probably posted too much about it. I was very deeply involved in visual meditations and was writing down everything that happened in them in a journal, sometimes rewriting it a couple of times. I became interested in Ellis and noticed that Doombringer corresponded with a figure I'd met in my meditation who represented the shadow side of the horned god, and I decided I would use Doombringer to explore my shadow side.

If people read the whole of the above text they will see there is quite a bit in it about Doombringer having a demonic nature. At the time I just glossed over that and used him to represent the dark side of the god of nature, and I was terrified of him at first. But then the meditations culminated in a 'going down the rabbit hole' initiation which seemed pretty genuine. It's optional of course but it's real- not someone playing with your head as Atidr says. Then something else happened- Doombringer revealed he has another side, as someone quite protective to people who are new to evocation. Another lady who joined also experienced this, independently of me.

A further note: I think this has the potential to become a religion in a few hundred years' time, but if so that would be totally against what the human members want and I don't think the egregores will force it by controlling people. What would happen: if we still have the internet (which we could lose in a cataclysm very easily) human beings will simply read it and be impressed by the thought, "Oh, look, this was contemporary- it was happening right then and was not a dead set of ideas." So they might make it into a left-hand sect like the Bon Po. Just a speculation!

Edited by SuccubusSherry, 17 August 2016 - 03:53 PM.

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#56 Lazarus Benedict

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 12:32 AM

Wow! This thread has been a fascinating read.

Edited by Lazarus Benedict, 18 August 2016 - 10:57 AM.

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#57 Atridr

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 01:47 PM

View Postarjil, on 16 August 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

As a practitioner of 27 years who has been involved in this process all along, I must disagree with your assessment. I won't argue that's your subjective perception and interpretation of your experience, but it's far removed from my own.
I have noted that people who are used to tightly regimented, strictly controlled magick, don't like our stuff or see it as particularly threatening. People who like a little more wild and wyrd don't tend to perceive it that way. May have something to do with it *shrug*

I seriously don't think that that is what is at stake here. I have practiced chaos magick, I have practiced drug alchemy, I have practiced some bloody and wild sex magicks too. I have revelled in madness and bathed in blasphemy in my time - and from it I have learned that ultimately it's not what magick is all about.

I have seen enough demons in my time to know that you, the people of the DKMU, are nothing but puppets to such - or even to beings much inferior to demons. In my eyes you're just ignorant rabble of would-be-magicians playing with fire that you can't even sense.

#58 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 09:00 PM

View PostAtridr, on 18 August 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

I seriously don't think that that is what is at stake here. I have practiced chaos magick, I have practiced drug alchemy, I have practiced some bloody and wild sex magicks too. I have revelled in madness and bathed in blasphemy in my time - and from it I have learned that ultimately it's not what magick is all about.

I have seen enough demons in my time to know that you, the people of the DKMU, are nothing but puppets to such - or even to beings much inferior to demons. In my eyes you're just ignorant rabble of would-be-magicians playing with fire that you can't even sense.

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Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 19 August 2016 - 02:04 PM.

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#59 arjil

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 03:45 AM

Eugene- is there some moderator magick that tips you off to a thread that's about to devolve into something nasty? lol
I'll leave it alone.
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#60 TheCusp

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 12:00 AM

View PostAtridr, on 18 August 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

I have seen enough demons in my time to know that you, the people of the DKMU, are nothing but puppets to such - or even to beings much inferior to demons. In my eyes you're just ignorant rabble of would-be-magicians playing with fire that you can't even sense.

I'm going to need to get to the bottom of this now. The theory is sound, egregores can go rogue.

But if you're into that context, you have to know that everyone is being puppeted by those things. And not string pulling puppets either, hand up the ass puppets.

Edited by TheCusp, 20 August 2016 - 12:05 AM.

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