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Tulpas As Friends


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#21 Vulpecula

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Posted 28 September 2014 - 07:54 PM

 SuccubusSherry, on 28 September 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

Do you think it has an adverse effect on a living human being when many people have fantasies about them and make tulpas of them?

I have been discussing this with others, and my tulpae.

One of the big problems that is seen with tulpae which are physically not original creations is that they often have identity problems. I am wondering if the possible effects go both ways, if the tulpae affects the one they are based on as much as that person has an affect on the tulpae.

As I care for my tulpae it is something I have considered carefully, obviously I do not know the person she was based on and it is likely I never will. Even with that, even with not knowing her personality I gave my tulpa her own energy source, identity and such. I was aware of the potential problem from early on though. For the record, she never had the issue. Not in years.

When I look at Miley Cyrus I wonder what the hell happened, perhaps there was some kind of feedback, some external influence from a tulpae or other entity. Sounds a lot like Voodoo to be honest. I might do some reading on how one protects themselves from such things. It may be relevant.

~ ☄ ~

"The first stage of seeing through the game can be a shocking enlightenment that leads either to a weary cynicism or Buddhism. The second stage of actually applying the insight to oneself can destroy the illusion of the soul and create a magician." -Peter Carroll


If the devil doesn’t exist, but man has created him, he has created him in his own image and likeness. –Fedor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov


#22 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 05:27 AM

Miley Cyrus is just the person I was thinking of.
See my blog for micro-fiction, poems, a few weird articles and links to my books: https://candyrayblog.wordpress.com

#23 Simon.Magus

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 07:36 AM

SuccubusSherry, (or anyone else reading this that feels inclined to share) would you mind giving me an idea of the level of realism you have felt with servitors and/or tulpae? Do you see them in real-life, hear them audibly, ever feel them physically? Or do they speak in "thought form" and only can be viewed in your mind's eye?

Edited by Simon.Magus, 29 September 2014 - 07:37 AM.


#24 Vulpecula

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 02:47 PM

They feel different to me, servitors and tulpae. That may be due to the fact my servitors are more tools, whereas my tulpae is more like a companion.

I experience most of the sensations in my minds eye. Interestingly, I am unable to observe my tulpa's thought processes as I do my own. Using mindfulness and awareness practices to clear my mind changes nothing, she is there, I know she is there and I can sense or see her.. But I cannot see her thoughts. She does things I could not expect. Interestingly, with no other thoughts present, she is.

Some people prefer to sense them audibly. They train them to use voice, I did not. I prefer direct thought communication, vocalisation of thoughts is vastly inferior to being able to express concepts directly. There's nothing lost in translation.

~ ☄ ~

"The first stage of seeing through the game can be a shocking enlightenment that leads either to a weary cynicism or Buddhism. The second stage of actually applying the insight to oneself can destroy the illusion of the soul and create a magician." -Peter Carroll


If the devil doesn’t exist, but man has created him, he has created him in his own image and likeness. –Fedor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov


#25 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 04:52 PM

I see, hear and feel tulpas and servitors only in my mind. Also I see, hear and feel angels and demons and gods only in my mind. My belief is that certain others who are more psychic then me may be able to see, hear and feel them as if they are present physically, but of course you can never know what someone else is experiencing. I like to believe people, I don't like to call them liars; however they could be hallucinating if they claim more physical-like sensory experiences, there is no way for me to know. I think of myself as clairaudient because I can pick up clear speech from any spirit I choose, but I can't hear their speech audibly, only as thoughts that are different from my own thoughts.

We still haven't answered Wren's questions about the Holy Guardian Angel. I am not the right person to ask about that because I'm convinced that I met mine and didn't like him and refused to speak to him again. Whenever I ask thelemites about my experience their opinion is always that it couldn't have been the Holy guardian Angel. Maybe someone who has done it the traditional way as recommended could say whether they used methods similar to speaking to a tulpa to make it more real.

In one of my Facebook groups (if I dare mention those on a properly structured forum!) we did an experiment with helping servitors to become more real by writing stories about them. This is a method I favour and it appears similar to what the tulpamancers do.
See my blog for micro-fiction, poems, a few weird articles and links to my books: https://candyrayblog.wordpress.com

#26 Vulpecula

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 08:16 PM

 SuccubusSherry, on 29 September 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

In one of my Facebook groups (if I dare mention those on a properly structured forum!) we did an experiment with helping servitors to become more real by writing stories about them. This is a method I favour and it appears similar to what the tulpamancers do.

I have heard that many writers form tulpae of their characters, they call it soulbonding.

~ ☄ ~

"The first stage of seeing through the game can be a shocking enlightenment that leads either to a weary cynicism or Buddhism. The second stage of actually applying the insight to oneself can destroy the illusion of the soul and create a magician." -Peter Carroll


If the devil doesn’t exist, but man has created him, he has created him in his own image and likeness. –Fedor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov


#27 Shinichi

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 01:15 PM

 wren, on 28 September 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

When I read this article back when it came out, it got me wondering.

I decided to go check out /r/tulpas and see what the fuss was about. I read all their posted guides on the process of making a tulpa that weren't 404'd. The "metaphysical" tulpas were supposed to be created just like you'd see in a chaos magic servitor construction 101 book. The "psychological" tulpas actually seemed to be the more nuanced and developed, from a technique perspective. These tended to rely on an process they called narration, which was essentially talking to the tulpa-to-be rather than at it. This outward turning and localization is something that I've done automatically during what few evocations I've attempted. It seriously made me wonder about the nature of the Abramelin Rite. Constantly keeping in mind the presence of an invisible guardian angel, and praying to/with/for it is essentially the same action as what these folks are doing to make "psychological" tulpas. The result is also surprisingly similar in some ways. I disregarded Caroll's (it was Caroll, wasn't it?) suggestion that the HGA is artificial and should not be created, when I first read him, but now I'm not certain. Neither am I certain if it ultimately matters. Still, what do y'all think?

Someone who isn't properly trained can create an artificial HGA instead of establishing contact with the real one. More than that, someone who isn't properly prepared can also simply become delusional.

I've met several people who have an HGA and either aren't aware of it or just aren't able to communicate with it, though I've yet to communicate with one that appeared to me as an "angel" either. It's simply a spirit that has been assigned to you since birth, to watch over your fate and make sure you complete the tasks that you were born to complete and experience the things that you are here to experience to help you grow. For particularly spiritual souls (like magicians), it can also become a teacher and guide through the spirit world.

In Teutonic Europe, the HGA is the Fylgja (Norse) and such, and usually appears as an animal or ancestor. In Totemic America, the "Spirit Helpers" of the Shamans often appear as animals. In Islam, it may be a Djinn. And in other traditions, it can appear as all sorts of things. Angel is just the way Christian Magic dubbed it, because as per the doctrine of Christianity, every spirit is either an angel or a demon.

Something else to remember is that spirits aren't really bound by Form. When a spirit is trying to communicate with you, it has no problem shape shifting into whatever helps get the message across. So even if the Abremelin Rite does create an artificial entity, if it's done right the HGA can still use that "body" as a medium for communication.

 Simon.Magus, on 29 September 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

SuccubusSherry, (or anyone else reading this that feels inclined to share) would you mind giving me an idea of the level of realism you have felt with servitors and/or tulpae? Do you see them in real-life, hear them audibly, ever feel them physically? Or do they speak in "thought form" and only can be viewed in your mind's eye?

As I said previously, there's more than one type of servitor, and they can exist on more than one plane. How a servitor is observed depends primarily on two things: its own nature, and the viewers soul senses.

A servitor that exists only on the mental plane will only be experienced mentally. A servitor that has an astral presence can be "felt" the way that any other astral energies can be felt, and can be seen with the astral senses: clairvoyance, etc. The only fully physical servitor is a golem, and I haven't heard of anyone creating that recently. Though, I suppose there's no reason that an astral servitor can't be evoked to physical presence, if the magician doing it is strong enough to do so.

 Vulpecula, on 29 September 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

I have heard that many writers form tulpae of their characters, they call it soulbonding.

As a writer and magician, that's something that I recommend against except in certain kinds of stories. A properly developed character comes "alive" in a way, but not quite the same way that tulpae are meant to. It's just good imagination.

As for the living person thing, there is a subtle connection that is established. That sort of thing is also why many mystics warn against worshiping or praying to living saints or masters. There's all kinds of metaphysical issues that pop up with that.



~:Shin:~

Edited by Shinichi, 30 September 2014 - 01:17 PM.

"There is no such thing as Impossible. It's merely a matter of understanding the mechanisms by which the Will may be made manifest into an objective reality." -- The Wise

#28 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 02:38 PM

 Shinichi, on 30 September 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:


As a writer and magician, that's something that I recommend against except in certain kinds of stories. A properly developed character comes "alive" in a way, but not quite the same way that tulpae are meant to. It's just good imagination.


~:Shin:~

The two stories I wrote were actually about a servitor and the magicians who were using him. A couple of people loved them; someone else who had used the technique before felt that it was too literal. What do you think?
See my blog for micro-fiction, poems, a few weird articles and links to my books: https://candyrayblog.wordpress.com

#29 Shinichi

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 06:04 PM

 SuccubusSherry, on 30 September 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

The two stories I wrote were actually about a servitor and the magicians who were using him. A couple of people loved them; someone else who had used the technique before felt that it was too literal. What do you think?

It really depends on what you're trying to do.

If your aim is to use story crafting as a method of creating a servitor, it's a bad idea, or at least not the best of your options. You can use reader attention (if you write a good story and get lots of readers) as fuel for the fire, so to say, but readers throw in a lot of their ideas with that attention. Your servitor will not be formed into something that you want, it will become the collective something that the readers want. It won't be your servitor anymore. Best case, you'll still be able to work with it. Worst case, it'll become one of those troublesome scenarios where you have a rogue servitor to deal with. That's the problem with this, you lose control over what's going to happen.

There have been public projects like this before, like Ellis. But Ellis had guidance and education, from a few decent magicians and mature spirits alike. She had her growing pains, but she's turned out quite well.

If you're using a pre-existing servitor, then it still depends on the purpose and the maturity of it. There will be reader influence, no matter what. But a particularly well constructed and mature entity will be able to handle that influence, even benefit from it in some cases. I once asked The Lemegeton if I could use a goetia spirit as a character in one of my stories. Marchosias answered, helped me develop the character, and still occasionally nags at me to actually finish the story (ah, writing :lol: ). After learning more about the other spirits since, not only is Marchosias the best fit for the particular character I had in mind, but he's probably more than capable of handling reader influence. ;)



~:Shin:~
"There is no such thing as Impossible. It's merely a matter of understanding the mechanisms by which the Will may be made manifest into an objective reality." -- The Wise

#30 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 07:53 PM

That's very informative Shinichi when it comes to stories that have been published, so there is a readership involved.

What happened here was a bit different. Someone made a suggestion, and interestingly enough his suggestion came from one of these very entities you mentioned, one called Bune. I wasn't sure I entirely understood his proposal, but it was exciting so I said great I'll do it, could someone make the servitor because I've only made two, and I'll write the story. I wrote it and this guy who is friendly with Bune liked it. Then I wrote another chapter because it was supposed to be part of a big project, but the project never got finished so they haven't been published anywhere.

Then I noticed that no-one had offered to make the servitor. Major embarrassment: I realized you don't say that in those kind of circles, so I amended my comments a bit and made him myself. He isn't a nasty servitor, mercurial I would say. A third person who was supposed to benefit from the servitor worked on him as well. My guess is he is probably tulpa-like, but at the moment there are no readers to put their influence in and most of the time I don't even remember this creature: following up with them is a habit I'm still trying to learn.I always end up in these crazy situations but I do not think any harm can come of it, only learning from experience.

Additional comment: I believe the ideal is to acquire the mental discipline to follow up with servitors at the beginning, before going on to making them. If you haven't trained your mind enough you become distracted by material life, or as in my case by other thought forms. I've only recently realized I've got a lot of mental debris caused by abandonned thought forms from the past and the young tulpamancers must be very prone to that as well.

Edited by SuccubusSherry, 01 October 2014 - 02:17 PM.

See my blog for micro-fiction, poems, a few weird articles and links to my books: https://candyrayblog.wordpress.com

#31 Vulpecula

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 07:09 AM

I have an interesting finding to share.

I based my tulpae on a real, live person. I don't know her from the proverbial bar of soap, I just copied her physical form.

I have been finding that I am becoming ambidextrous. I thought little of it.. Until I looked up some more images of the person I based my tulpas form on, she's left handed.

May be something, may be nothing, but it happens most when I feel her presence.

Edited by Vulpecula, 06 October 2014 - 08:57 AM.

~ ☄ ~

"The first stage of seeing through the game can be a shocking enlightenment that leads either to a weary cynicism or Buddhism. The second stage of actually applying the insight to oneself can destroy the illusion of the soul and create a magician." -Peter Carroll


If the devil doesn’t exist, but man has created him, he has created him in his own image and likeness. –Fedor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov


#32 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 07 October 2014 - 04:55 PM

 Vulpecula, on 06 October 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:


I based my tulpae on a real, live person.



I have mentioned several times on this forum that one of the characters in my Wiccan themed meditation 'turned into a demon.' It probably made me sound more like a fire and brimstone preacher than a Wiccan. This character was actually based on the High Priest in the music I listen to; he is a real person but I don't know for sure his name or physical appearance, only his voice and the fact that he did the singing over 20 years ago so he will probably have changed quite a bit since then.

I actually had two attempts at making thought forms of the couple in question. After a time Cernunnos expressed dissatisfaction with them and asked me to try again and remake them having more regard to the admirable personalities I was imagining that they had. So I scrapped the first two and did it again. At this time I knew very little about servitors or tulpas- I had simply noticed there was a similarity with what I do and was reading a little about them to find out more.

Maybe I should write a short story, or even a factual account of what happened when my character came to life. It was very dramatic and very exciting. But unfortunately due to the type of personality he had (which there had been hints of all along) I had to abandon all of them and start again. I'm sure it does have a lot to do with me, but I feel that external forces have something to do with it as well.

Since then I've symbolically 'gone back in time' and tinkered with them, in the spirit of experimentation. I've also looked into the real people they are probably based on, but I'm always careful not to connect them with the name or appearance of the real people, and even one of the other characters warned me about that. (Another of the demons actually, but let's not call everybody demons.)
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#33 Qaexl

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 01:33 AM

 SuccubusSherry, on 06 September 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

This article was linked in one of my groups: The Internet's Newest Subculture Is All About Creating Imaginary Friends.

http://www.vice.com/...#f18713cb2363de

Thanks for sharing this. I'm going to look into it; don't really have anything to add to this thread at this point.

-Qaexl

#34 wren

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 04:29 PM

I just finished Magic and Mystery in Tibet, and to my surprise, the tulpa described therein is just a plain ole servitor/thoughtform with a ton of juice. I wonder where the head-mate idea comes from.

#35 Vulpecula

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 03:30 PM

Do you mean the psychological version, or the metaphysical version?

I think for the psych version, well.. imaginary friends are common for children and adults may remember a level of comfort provided by the "friend". At the end of the day it may just be a defense and comfort mechanism.

If you look on the tulpa subreddit you will find a considerable amount of people with social problems who desire friends.

~ ☄ ~

"The first stage of seeing through the game can be a shocking enlightenment that leads either to a weary cynicism or Buddhism. The second stage of actually applying the insight to oneself can destroy the illusion of the soul and create a magician." -Peter Carroll


If the devil doesn’t exist, but man has created him, he has created him in his own image and likeness. –Fedor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov


#36 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 04:39 PM

Quote

If you look on the tulpa subreddit you will find a considerable amount of people with social problems who desire friends

You're making it sound as if it's all about social inadequacy! For me it was more a case of recognizing that I've always made thought forms, and I'm introverted as well so there's a thing.....now who else is making thought forms, and why, and how ? The focus was on that who else and why and how, which was what eventually led me to study chaos magic. Whether or not it is the psychological approach or the metaphysical approach, (for the two certainly merge) it is actually a gift, and gifts should be seen in a positive light. We've all come across horror stories that are centred around someone's gift being expressed in a negative way, but it doesn't have to be like that.

So far on my quest of 'who else and why and how?' I have discovered that it is difficult to make a completely autonomous robot- like entity, and even if you've been making the psychological ones all your life the metaphysical ones take a lot of skill. But what does very often happen is that a pre-existent being takes over the thought form and uses it as a new incarnation, and then it looks as if you made it but you didn't really.
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#37 wren

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 05:46 PM

Both? When did the shift happen that took "tulpa" from magical entity created with the imagination to imaginary entity brought to life with magic? That's a really interesting distinction to me.

#38 z0b

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 06:24 PM

Did you ever think that everything you do is a act of magik.Everybody taints all they come in contact with there own energies all the time.I guess it's how you just choose to look at things really.

#39 Vulpecula

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 04:32 AM

 SuccubusSherry, on 23 October 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

You're making it sound as if it's all about social inadequacy!

"All about"? No. But in the case of the reddit users, it is a very large contributing factor. Go and read their census. Please do not read between the lines or create motive on my behalf. It is not appreciated.

 z0b, on 23 October 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

Did you ever think that everything you do is a act of magik.Everybody taints all they come in contact with there own energies all the time.I guess it's how you just choose to look at things really.

I was referring to the intent of the creator. There are those out there, in fact the vast majority in the "tulpae groups" which subscribe to the psychological model only. They do not believe that their creations are in any way magick.

The creators often subscribe to one of two models, psychological to metaphysical.

As for me, I am experienced with servitors, so I utilised both models.

Edited by Vulpecula, 24 October 2014 - 05:43 AM.

~ ☄ ~

"The first stage of seeing through the game can be a shocking enlightenment that leads either to a weary cynicism or Buddhism. The second stage of actually applying the insight to oneself can destroy the illusion of the soul and create a magician." -Peter Carroll


If the devil doesn’t exist, but man has created him, he has created him in his own image and likeness. –Fedor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov


#40 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 05:07 PM

I don't know much about reddit. Just had a quick look and found a page with a 16-line warning about taking what you are doing seriously followed by the comment: "If this is too long for you to read, you shouldn't create a tulpa" which I found very amusing.

What about the days before the internet when teenagers simply kept on doing what they do without access to any discussion or advice or warnings about it? The internet is a quick easy way to find out about others doing the same thing. As I said above I've realized that my mind has a lot of thought form debris clogging it up, but I wouldn't like to say this debris consists of many sentient people screaming because they have been forgotten and neglected. It's probably much more of a 'parts of the personality' thing than that, and of course many of mine are Deity forms of gods and angels which I think the Deity would withdraw from smoothly and carry on without a backward look.
See my blog for micro-fiction, poems, a few weird articles and links to my books: https://candyrayblog.wordpress.com





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