Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:33 AM
Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:09 AM
Posted 04 April 2014 - 06:17 PM
Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:50 PM
The owners of Occult Corpus could encourage them to speak to a trusted friend or relative, or the Samaritans or equivalent.
The Samaritans are a charity organisation in Britain, which anyone can contact at all times in person or by phone if they are feeling suicidal. They have trained people on duty to talk to in a helpful supportive way.
Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:08 PM
The same goes for email and IP addresses.
Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:32 PM
Edited by Orlando, 04 April 2014 - 10:32 PM.
Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:36 PM
Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:18 AM
If it would do anything at all. Even if reporting, having an email adr or even a homeadress and sending collected "evidence" (even picked from private messages) you might as well get an answer along the line that this evidence was just hearsay. That no act had been comitted.
It might be different from state to state but as far as I know "help" against the will of an individual can only be "granted" when the life was actually in danger. At this point the cat bites its tail. Whilst postig suicide notes may be a cry for help or attention and seriously alienate other members it is more or less an expression of ones own oppinion. And as such no crime or a reason to work against the will of this said individual.
If the person really wishes to vanish and this desire is deeply rooted no post will be made. The body will be found cold. And not "help" could be "granted". So the person would be needed to still be found alive. And this is the point where voidgazings concern hits. Because then this individual would be seriously bound to an institution for a certain amount of time. What "help" is "granted" there can be discussed in another debate.
Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:26 AM
As for my opinion about what OC should do and why...
Even if there is no legal liability, there is a social responsibility. Before there were laws requiring theaters to have fire exits, theaters had a social responsibility to provide for the safety of their patrons in an emergency. If someone has a heart attack in a restaurant, it's better for everyone if the staff is trained in responding to such emergencies than if they're not trained, etc. This all goes to the basic idea that if we can make the world a better place for those around us by adopting reasonable conventions, we inevitably make the world a better place for ourselves too.
I think the Facebook model is reasonable, assuming admin here can find out what they do with reports and deems that reasonable. I also agree with the earlier suggestion that goading responses to a suicide threat should be taken down immediately and the poster banned.
Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 05 April 2014 - 01:30 AM.
Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:39 PM
The same goes for email and IP addresses.
Has anyone actually checked the legal side of things yet?
Is the forum governed by the law of the state of it's owners or where the server is housed?
Where could we even find that out?
I think it's great that we're discussing this as a community but it's a lot of guessing right now. Say that the forum is governed by the laws of the owner and that state says that it's mandatory to report it for a well check - then that's what it says. Without knowing the above - we can make the compassionate, careful, responsible, etc, policy but if the shit hits the fan and someone does actually kill themselves... but it may not be enough.
On one hand, I think that having a policy on board that clearly states suicidal speech will be turned over to their local authorities (with follow through) is a good idea.
On the other hand, I agree with void. Siccing the 'man' on people is not always the best thing to do.
If you do decide to report suicide threats - where do you draw the line. I could be having a horrible day and type 'just shoot me - I'm so sick of this'. It's obviously a figure of speech versus "I hate my life, I'm going to kill myself".
At this point in my life I'm just going to say this simply. My husband has a badge. If he reads over my shoulder or if I mention suicidal threats to him - he's required to call it in and have a well check done. I'm the wrong person to talk to about suicide - and there's been several times that it's come up with different members here and elsewhere. When it does - this is the first thing I tell them. What I have seen each time after I've said the above is backpeddling or 'just blowing off steam'.
People that say it are looking for attention. I get it - but it's not always true. Sometimes, they're looking for someone to give them a reason not to. Just because they're not fully committed to the idea - the idea is still in their heads. Unless they're a total drama queen and even then - I do believe that there is some truth to it.
As far as private messages - we all know they're not private. Once it's written and sent the privacy side of things completely depends upon the person that receives it. If there's a valid suicide threat in a pm I think it should be treated as even more real.
But like I said above - I think we need to find out what laws the forum is governed by and then find out what the laws of that state are when it comes to reporting suicide threats. Once you know that - you can make an informed decision as to what policies to put in place.
I've been on other forums where the ToU clearly states that posts or pms containing illegal activity or threats (to others or oneself) will be reported to the proper authorities. I haven't come across any of the suicide drama on any of the forums that do have it written. I'm sure it happens - I just haven't seen it.
Posted 05 April 2014 - 03:59 PM
I think you should give the people here some time and air to breath. It is very easy for you as a regualr member to ask for things to happen but consider that this forum is not facebook. The mods and owners have lives of thir own, the forum is no corporation, in contrary it costs money. This very specific piece of information might ask for an appointment with a lawyer to be sure of what to do next. Which will cost time and maybe even money.
Posted 05 April 2014 - 11:22 PM
I didn't ask for anything. I simply asked if anyone has checked the legal side of it yet. Without knowing if there is any legal liability how can you guys possibly make a policy? I really don't know where the attitude is coming from and I really don't appreciate it. It was a simple question.
If there is no legal liability then the policy regarding suicidal speech will be one based on what they want the forum to convey. If there is legal liability - then the policy will be formed around that.
It's not my forum. I have no liability here. This whole question came up because I received a suicidal pm. I forwarded it to void and asked if they had a policy in place. I replied to the sender that because of my personal circumstances (my husband has a badge) that I was the wrong person to talk to about this because I would have to report it and I didn't really want to have to do that.
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away I was a mod on a very busy forum that was based in Canada. 10 years ago when we had a suicidal member, the forum owner did check on the legal liability and found out he had some. He personally made the phone call and had the police do a 'well check' based on the IP address. He covered his ass.
I only ask this question because I've seen it played out before. I care about this forum and the members here. I don't want to see anybody's head on a chopping block. So, no. I'm not asking for anything. I'm certainly not demanding anything. I'm sharing my own experience.
Posted 06 April 2014 - 12:26 AM
Just to clarify, I am not in the mod or owner team. I am as a concerned user as you are. But the team behind the scenes only consits of human beings. Who also have a life to live as you and I. They do all this in their free time. And they stand infront of this new situation as we normal members do. But they have to find a solution (for us all). And they have to find out a context which may be very simple or very complex.
And as I already said it may even be necesarry to ask a lawyer (or other professionals in the field) regarding this. It may. If so this can take time (to get an appointment) and it is possible this will cost money.
And I am sure the team is grateful for your input. As for the input of others. But again, the more information comes in the more discussion will be needed to sort all this out. And still it might lead to a halt at some point and to talks in circles. Because there will be a point where specific points in this eqation can only be sorted out by professionals.
If there has been an attituide in my writing I sincerely appologise for it. It was really not ment to be there. All I wanted was to point out that time will be needed to come to a solution which will be satisfactory for everybody.
As you may have noticed I am not the most regular poster but this issue even got me out of hibernation and I felt to say some words. I wish for this situation to settle soon (as everybody) but I also wish that the people who work hard for this forum to function as flawless as it does not to be forgotten.
This is why I spoke in this manner because I think they may have other things to do right now than to stand up and ask for some understanding in their behalf. I can guarantee you they work as fast as they can on a soltuion.
So again, I ask for those people to be a little more patient.
Posted 06 April 2014 - 12:59 AM
I do know and understand how much behind the scenes work there is to moderating a busy forum. It's a lot more than most people realize.
Posted 07 April 2014 - 10:09 PM
I think even this thread shows that some people really aren't equipped to provide support via conversation or comment. Rather than go into a detailed critique or sensitivity training lecture, I would agree that we are not, nor are we meant to be, a suicide hotline. Our members aren't all up for the task, and since being up for such a task requires training (not just Life Experience), I don't hold this against anyone. My point is, letting a bunch of random occultists loose on a person expressing that level of pain would be as irresponsible as not doing anything at all.
So, here's what you do (to sum up and agree with other suggestions):
1. Put a policy in place explaining that posts expressing an intention to commit suicide or self-harm outside the context of a controlled ritual will be deleted.
2. Explain why (we are not trained to deal with these situations, and we genuinely want you to receive help and healing in your IRL community).
3. Provide resources
4. Include a policy that anyone egging on a suicidal member will be banned. This is to be treated as life or death, not a pissing contest.
5. Research liability issues around, and efficacy of, treating suicide threats online as a medical emergency and reporting it as such. Create a policy for moderators (not members) based on findings. It is so important to base this on facts rather than fears or hearsay.
6. Members who notice a cry for help on the forums or via PM are to report to a moderator immediately, especially if the post is public and damage control needs to be done.
I wonder how other spiritual communities deal with this? Like PhoenixAlpha, I arrived here in a lot of pain, and with enough intent to end it to warrant serious attention. I don't think it would behoove us to make such members feel shamed or silenced; I guess if you're approached as a friend or as spiritual kin with a pained outcry, responding with compassionate support is no bad thing, even if we must take serious follow-up measures.
Final thought: There is no way for anyone to know how serious a person is about committing suicide. The mind is not operating logically, and so that whole "killing yourself is easy and so LOGICALLY if you really wanted to, you'd just do it!" argument is not only invalid, it also misses the point. It's a good thing if the person only has a PARTIAL will to go through with it. That means they are not beyond help. So check your ego, dispense with the need to be right, and either help or gracefully stfu. <3
Edited by Rose, 07 April 2014 - 10:10 PM.
Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:08 AM
I haven't found anything in any country so far that requires us to report to authorities, and we don't have direct access to do that anyway- all we can count on having is an IP address, and while we might in some cases be able to figure out who someone is, just having an IP gets you nowhere, and we cannot be reasonably expected to be detectives. The only people who seem bound to report this stuff to authority by law (at least in the US) are healthcare professionals, and that isn't even the case in all states.
I think such a report would actually increase OC's legal liability. Google 'police kill suicidal' for examples- police show up, kill suicidal person with alarming frequency. If OC is why the police showed up... that's a potential lawsuitin' right there.
Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:26 AM
That may be part of why Facebook encourages their members to report threats to law enforcement. I'm reasonably sure they're responding to encouragement from the suicide prevention organizations to get professionals involved if possible, but maybe they'd rather not be the reporter.
And of course Facebook is a very different kind of place. Their members who see a threat are way more likely to know the person making the threat in real life than our members here. Even so, I think it would be worth knowing what Facebook does with the reports they collect with their form.
Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:23 AM
While I would love to be of more service to folks who are in need my views have changed on this recently. As VG said a great deal of violence and secondary charges come with police interention in a suicide. Its best we offer support and information.
The Art of Stealing Fire : My Online Magical Journal
Big mountain, wide river
There's an ancient pull
These tree trunks, these stream beds
Leave our bellies full
They sing out I am going to stand my ground
You rise to me and I'll blow you down
I am going to stand my ground
You rise to me and I'll blow you down
Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:02 PM
Unfortunately, this is true. This is why I am upfront and honest about why I can't help anyone with this. I'm really not being a bitch.
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