Jump to content


- - - - -

Suicidal Speech


57 replies to this topic

#21 z0b

    Senior Member

  • Old Timers
  • 976 posts
  • LocationPA

Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:33 AM

Then I would suggest a very thought out balanced approach as to not attract hoards seeking help which there are tons of on the internet but not being apathetic either not a easy undertaking you did not even consider there are those that seeing people in need come here would turn this place into a battle over the food of the suffering.There are already too many place on the net that are like that this should not become one.Like I said not a easy thing you are attempting to do give it much thought.

#22 RoseRed

    Venerable Member

  • Old Timers
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • Locationon the edge of civilization

Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:09 AM

I think the first step would be to find out if there is indeed any legal liability. If there is - that will dictate the course of the decisions that would need to be made.
When my wings get tired I grab my broom.

#23 Live To learn

    Newbie

  • Gold Member
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 04 April 2014 - 06:17 PM

i dont think there is any legal liabilities, i could be wrong on this, but as stated this is not a suicide hotline. Also it already has been stated that more often than not, open threats of suicide are just a cry for help or listen to me. I go along with the posting of the suicide help links, and any members who chose to listen to indivual who stated it publically do so thru private messages. Therefore its a personal choice just to listen to them, and be supportive to help them thru the bad times we all can go thru. Also doing so thru private messaging would relieve the site if of legal liabilities if the one helping said "just do it" or gave them suggestions on how to do it ect ect ect since it would be the indiviual giving the advise..... anyone who is set on committing suicide will usually just go out and do it, and the cry for help is tucked deep inside until you find the "goodbye" or "I'm sorry" letter after it was too late to stop. .... but the open threats should always be listened to by someone.... sometimes all it takes to get the actual thought out of ones head is someone just to listen to them.....

#24 Orlando

    Member

  • Old Timers
  • 496 posts
  • LocationEngland, UK.

Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:50 PM

Anyone saying they are going to commit suicide is making a desperate ‘cry for help’ – as such, ‘a cry for help’, we aught to do exactly that, help them, as best we can in our stumbling limited way. After all, they are not making 'a cry for help' for nothing.

The owners of Occult Corpus could encourage them to speak to a trusted friend or relative, or the Samaritans or equivalent.
The Samaritans are a charity organisation in Britain, which anyone can contact at all times in person or by phone if they are feeling suicidal. They have trained people on duty to talk to in a helpful supportive way.

#25 Qryztufre

    Administrator

  • Owner
  • 6,558 posts

Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:08 PM

From the policy side of things, it needs to be discussed what should be done with reported private messages (like sending them to third parties such as the police or schools) and how that effects our privacy guidelines.

The same goes for email and IP addresses.



#26 Orlando

    Member

  • Old Timers
  • 496 posts
  • LocationEngland, UK.

Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:32 PM

Heck, if someone springs a suicide bid, as far as I’m concerned they aught to be helped. All that concerns us then is that they don’t die - If that means breaking their privacy or confidentiality then so be it –– privacy and confidentiality will have go out the window, over something as serious as a suicide bid. Staying alive overrules everything.

Edited by Orlando, 04 April 2014 - 10:32 PM.


#27 voidgazing

    Moderator

  • Owner
  • 4,128 posts

Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:36 PM

I'm thinking that we simply shouldn't report to third parties. If we get a forwarded PM, we send the originator the 'how to not kill yourself' sites/hotlines etc. The reasoning is, if our known policy is to sic the authorities on someone, then nobody is going to send that PM, and that results in them getting no help instead of the limited help we can give. I also (as stated above) have a serious lack of faith that such a report would actually do more good than harm.
This is a postcard sent from the dining room of the HMS Russel's Teapot. Wish you were here- the band is spot on tonight, and we're having "all the way down" turtle soup!

#28 UraTriUra

    site porno

  • Board of Directors
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,034 posts

Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:18 AM

View Postvoidgazing, on 04 April 2014 - 10:36 PM, said:

I also (as stated above) have a serious lack of faith that such a report would actually do more good than harm.

If it would do anything at all. Even if reporting, having an email adr or even a homeadress and sending collected "evidence" (even picked from private messages) you might as well get an answer along the line that this evidence was just hearsay. That no act had been comitted.

It might be different from state to state but as far as I know "help" against the will of an individual can only be "granted" when the life was actually in danger. At this point the cat bites its tail. Whilst postig suicide notes may be a cry for help or attention and seriously alienate other members it is more or less an expression of ones own oppinion. And as such no crime or a reason to work against the will of this said individual.

If the person really wishes to vanish and this desire is deeply rooted no post will be made. The body will be found cold. And not "help" could be "granted". So the person would be needed to still be found alive. And this is the point where voidgazings concern hits. Because then this individual would be seriously bound to an institution for a certain amount of time. What "help" is "granted" there can be discussed in another debate.

#29 R. Eugene Laughlin

    Board Member

  • Moderators
  • 3,513 posts
  • LocationOregon

Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:26 AM

So, the Facebook policy has three elements. The first is to encourage all users who see suicidal content to contact law enforcement immediately. I believe this recommendation was selected because suicide prevention organizations nearly universally recommend treating any threat of suicide as a medical emergency. Second, they have a contact form for reporting suicidal content. I do not know how they respond to reports and I'd rather not guess. Third, they have an information page with links and numbers to resources for reporters and persons feeling suicidal.

As for my opinion about what OC should do and why...

Even if there is no legal liability, there is a social responsibility. Before there were laws requiring theaters to have fire exits, theaters had a social responsibility to provide for the safety of their patrons in an emergency. If someone has a heart attack in a restaurant, it's better for everyone if the staff is trained in responding to such emergencies than if they're not trained, etc. This all goes to the basic idea that if we can make the world a better place for those around us by adopting reasonable conventions, we inevitably make the world a better place for ourselves too.

I think the Facebook model is reasonable, assuming admin here can find out what they do with reports and deems that reasonable. I also agree with the earlier suggestion that goading responses to a suicide threat should be taken down immediately and the poster banned.

Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 05 April 2014 - 01:30 AM.

Effectiveness is the Measure of Truth
http://neuromagick.com/
https://www.etsy.com...CraftsEngraving

#30 RoseRed

    Venerable Member

  • Old Timers
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • Locationon the edge of civilization

Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:39 PM

View PostQryztufre, on 04 April 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

From the policy side of things, it needs to be discussed what should be done with reported private messages (like sending them to third parties such as the police or schools) and how that effects our privacy guidelines.

The same goes for email and IP addresses.

Has anyone actually checked the legal side of things yet?

Is the forum governed by the law of the state of it's owners or where the server is housed?

Where could we even find that out?

I think it's great that we're discussing this as a community but it's a lot of guessing right now. Say that the forum is governed by the laws of the owner and that state says that it's mandatory to report it for a well check - then that's what it says. Without knowing the above - we can make the compassionate, careful, responsible, etc, policy but if the shit hits the fan and someone does actually kill themselves... but it may not be enough.

On one hand, I think that having a policy on board that clearly states suicidal speech will be turned over to their local authorities (with follow through) is a good idea.

On the other hand, I agree with void. Siccing the 'man' on people is not always the best thing to do.

If you do decide to report suicide threats - where do you draw the line. I could be having a horrible day and type 'just shoot me - I'm so sick of this'. It's obviously a figure of speech versus "I hate my life, I'm going to kill myself".

At this point in my life I'm just going to say this simply. My husband has a badge. If he reads over my shoulder or if I mention suicidal threats to him - he's required to call it in and have a well check done. I'm the wrong person to talk to about suicide - and there's been several times that it's come up with different members here and elsewhere. When it does - this is the first thing I tell them. What I have seen each time after I've said the above is backpeddling or 'just blowing off steam'.

People that say it are looking for attention. I get it - but it's not always true. Sometimes, they're looking for someone to give them a reason not to. Just because they're not fully committed to the idea - the idea is still in their heads. Unless they're a total drama queen and even then - I do believe that there is some truth to it.

As far as private messages - we all know they're not private. Once it's written and sent the privacy side of things completely depends upon the person that receives it. If there's a valid suicide threat in a pm I think it should be treated as even more real.

But like I said above - I think we need to find out what laws the forum is governed by and then find out what the laws of that state are when it comes to reporting suicide threats. Once you know that - you can make an informed decision as to what policies to put in place.

I've been on other forums where the ToU clearly states that posts or pms containing illegal activity or threats (to others or oneself) will be reported to the proper authorities. I haven't come across any of the suicide drama on any of the forums that do have it written. I'm sure it happens - I just haven't seen it.
When my wings get tired I grab my broom.

#31 UraTriUra

    site porno

  • Board of Directors
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,034 posts

Posted 05 April 2014 - 03:59 PM

View PostRoseRed, on 05 April 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Has anyone actually checked the legal side of things yet?

I think you should give the people here some time and air to breath. It is very easy for you as a regualr member to ask for things to happen but consider that this forum is not facebook. The mods and owners have lives of thir own, the forum is no corporation, in contrary it costs money. This very specific piece of information might ask for an appointment with a lawyer to be sure of what to do next. Which will cost time and maybe even money.

#32 RoseRed

    Venerable Member

  • Old Timers
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • Locationon the edge of civilization

Posted 05 April 2014 - 11:22 PM

Wow, and I thought I was just asking a simple question. This is a conversation, right? Void did ask for input and conversation.

I didn't ask for anything. I simply asked if anyone has checked the legal side of it yet. Without knowing if there is any legal liability how can you guys possibly make a policy? I really don't know where the attitude is coming from and I really don't appreciate it. It was a simple question.

If there is no legal liability then the policy regarding suicidal speech will be one based on what they want the forum to convey. If there is legal liability - then the policy will be formed around that.

It's not my forum. I have no liability here. This whole question came up because I received a suicidal pm. I forwarded it to void and asked if they had a policy in place. I replied to the sender that because of my personal circumstances (my husband has a badge) that I was the wrong person to talk to about this because I would have to report it and I didn't really want to have to do that.

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away I was a mod on a very busy forum that was based in Canada. 10 years ago when we had a suicidal member, the forum owner did check on the legal liability and found out he had some. He personally made the phone call and had the police do a 'well check' based on the IP address. He covered his ass.

I only ask this question because I've seen it played out before. I care about this forum and the members here. I don't want to see anybody's head on a chopping block. So, no. I'm not asking for anything. I'm certainly not demanding anything. I'm sharing my own experience.
When my wings get tired I grab my broom.

#33 UraTriUra

    site porno

  • Board of Directors
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,034 posts

Posted 06 April 2014 - 12:26 AM

View PostRoseRed, on 05 April 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

I simply asked if anyone has checked the legal side of it yet. Without knowing if there is any legal liability how can you guys possibly make a policy?

Just to clarify, I am not in the mod or owner team. I am as a concerned user as you are. But the team behind the scenes only consits of human beings. Who also have a life to live as you and I. They do all this in their free time. And they stand infront of this new situation as we normal members do. But they have to find a solution (for us all). And they have to find out a context which may be very simple or very complex.

And as I already said it may even be necesarry to ask a lawyer (or other professionals in the field) regarding this. It may. If so this can take time (to get an appointment) and it is possible this will cost money.


View PostRoseRed, on 05 April 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

I replied to the sender that because of my personal circumstances (my husband has a badge) that I was the wrong person to talk to about this because I would have to report it and I didn't really want to have to do that.

And I am sure the team is grateful for your input. As for the input of others. But again, the more information comes in the more discussion will be needed to sort all this out. And still it might lead to a halt at some point and to talks in circles. Because there will be a point where specific points in this eqation can only be sorted out by professionals.


View PostRoseRed, on 05 April 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

I really don't know where the attitude is coming from and I really don't appreciate it.

If there has been an attituide in my writing I sincerely appologise for it. It was really not ment to be there. All I wanted was to point out that time will be needed to come to a solution which will be satisfactory for everybody.

As you may have noticed I am not the most regular poster but this issue even got me out of hibernation and I felt to say some words. I wish for this situation to settle soon (as everybody) but I also wish that the people who work hard for this forum to function as flawless as it does not to be forgotten.

This is why I spoke in this manner because I think they may have other things to do right now than to stand up and ask for some understanding in their behalf. I can guarantee you they work as fast as they can on a soltuion.

So again, I ask for those people to be a little more patient.

#34 RoseRed

    Venerable Member

  • Old Timers
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • Locationon the edge of civilization

Posted 06 April 2014 - 12:59 AM

Thank you and I agree.

I do know and understand how much behind the scenes work there is to moderating a busy forum. It's a lot more than most people realize.
When my wings get tired I grab my broom.

#35 Rose

    Senior Member

  • Old Timers
  • 733 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 10:09 PM

I think I love R. Eugene Laughlin. I mean, actually. This man is fantastic. Love in your general direction, sir. All the love.

I think even this thread shows that some people really aren't equipped to provide support via conversation or comment. Rather than go into a detailed critique or sensitivity training lecture, I would agree that we are not, nor are we meant to be, a suicide hotline. Our members aren't all up for the task, and since being up for such a task requires training (not just Life Experience), I don't hold this against anyone. My point is, letting a bunch of random occultists loose on a person expressing that level of pain would be as irresponsible as not doing anything at all.

So, here's what you do (to sum up and agree with other suggestions):
1. Put a policy in place explaining that posts expressing an intention to commit suicide or self-harm outside the context of a controlled ritual will be deleted.
2. Explain why (we are not trained to deal with these situations, and we genuinely want you to receive help and healing in your IRL community).
3. Provide resources
4. Include a policy that anyone egging on a suicidal member will be banned. This is to be treated as life or death, not a pissing contest.
5. Research liability issues around, and efficacy of, treating suicide threats online as a medical emergency and reporting it as such. Create a policy for moderators (not members) based on findings. It is so important to base this on facts rather than fears or hearsay.
6. Members who notice a cry for help on the forums or via PM are to report to a moderator immediately, especially if the post is public and damage control needs to be done.

I wonder how other spiritual communities deal with this? Like PhoenixAlpha, I arrived here in a lot of pain, and with enough intent to end it to warrant serious attention. I don't think it would behoove us to make such members feel shamed or silenced; I guess if you're approached as a friend or as spiritual kin with a pained outcry, responding with compassionate support is no bad thing, even if we must take serious follow-up measures.

Final thought: There is no way for anyone to know how serious a person is about committing suicide. The mind is not operating logically, and so that whole "killing yourself is easy and so LOGICALLY if you really wanted to, you'd just do it!" argument is not only invalid, it also misses the point. It's a good thing if the person only has a PARTIAL will to go through with it. That means they are not beyond help. So check your ego, dispense with the need to be right, and either help or gracefully stfu. <3

Edited by Rose, 07 April 2014 - 10:10 PM.


#36 voidgazing

    Moderator

  • Owner
  • 4,128 posts

Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:08 AM

What I've been able to find so far- and I'm not a lawyer- on the legal front has been that the forum's liability is minimized by sending resources like suicide hotlines, and not engaging in any attempt at therapy with the person who made the threat. This is civil liability. I found nothing yet whatsoever involving criminal liability.

I haven't found anything in any country so far that requires us to report to authorities, and we don't have direct access to do that anyway- all we can count on having is an IP address, and while we might in some cases be able to figure out who someone is, just having an IP gets you nowhere, and we cannot be reasonably expected to be detectives. The only people who seem bound to report this stuff to authority by law (at least in the US) are healthcare professionals, and that isn't even the case in all states.

I think such a report would actually increase OC's legal liability. Google 'police kill suicidal' for examples- police show up, kill suicidal person with alarming frequency. If OC is why the police showed up... that's a potential lawsuitin' right there.
This is a postcard sent from the dining room of the HMS Russel's Teapot. Wish you were here- the band is spot on tonight, and we're having "all the way down" turtle soup!

#37 R. Eugene Laughlin

    Board Member

  • Moderators
  • 3,513 posts
  • LocationOregon

Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:26 AM

Just so everyone knows, I take in all the love that comes my way and cherish it. Yes I do.

};-)>

View Postvoidgazing, on 08 April 2014 - 12:08 AM, said:

I think such a report would actually increase OC's legal liability.

That may be part of why Facebook encourages their members to report threats to law enforcement. I'm reasonably sure they're responding to encouragement from the suicide prevention organizations to get professionals involved if possible, but maybe they'd rather not be the reporter.

And of course Facebook is a very different kind of place. Their members who see a threat are way more likely to know the person making the threat in real life than our members here. Even so, I think it would be worth knowing what Facebook does with the reports they collect with their form.
Effectiveness is the Measure of Truth
http://neuromagick.com/
https://www.etsy.com...CraftsEngraving

#38 Rose

    Senior Member

  • Old Timers
  • 733 posts

Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:15 AM

voidgazing, that's good what you found about liability. It's consistent with the rest of the list of suggested policies and procedures. Deleting posts (and replies) and reaching out with resources seems the way to go.

#39 Morrigan

    (>'o')> MAGIC <('o'<)

  • Administrator
  • 1,526 posts
  • LocationWandering the coast

Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:23 AM

I'm in favor of creating a form letter with suicide prevention information including hotlines and such. Also we should hold to a very strict policy regarding the deletion of suicidal posts and an even stricter policy regarding infractions for goaders.

While I would love to be of more service to folks who are in need my views have changed on this recently. As VG said a great deal of violence and secondary charges come with police interention in a suicide. Its best we offer support and information.
Cast Wide the Circle: Place for my musings and the occasional book review.
The Art of Stealing Fire : My Online Magical Journal
Big mountain, wide river
There's an ancient pull
These tree trunks, these stream beds
Leave our bellies full
They sing out I am going to stand my ground
You rise to me and I'll blow you down
I am going to stand my ground
You rise to me and I'll blow you down

#40 RoseRed

    Venerable Member

  • Old Timers
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,520 posts
  • Locationon the edge of civilization

Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:02 PM

Quote

As VG said a great deal of violence and secondary charges come with police interention in a suicide.

Unfortunately, this is true. This is why I am upfront and honest about why I can't help anyone with this. I'm really not being a bitch.
When my wings get tired I grab my broom.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users