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Suicidal Speech


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#41 Morrigan

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:19 PM

RR I doubt anyone would accuse of that. We all have our things we can't say,do,get involved with. My job requires me to be a mandatory reporter in these cases too, so I try to steer clear. I used to be in the call the po' po' camp but have moved on after experience and some vows.
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#42 Parafoxical

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 05:39 PM

First of all, I agree that the best response is to provide helpful information, such as suicide prevention hotlines and websites.

Second, I'm disgusted and disappointed at the way some of you are talking about those who are suicidal. While it is of course true that some genuinely stupid people try to get attention by claiming over and over that they're going to commit suicide, as a sort of emotional blackmail to garner sympathy or even compliance from those around them (such is true, for example, in the case of some abusers, who will claim that if their significant other dares to leave, they will commit suicide) - it is ridiculous to claim that the mere mention of wishing to commit suicide means it's always "just a cry for help", and equally ridiculous to claim that it's only the quiet ones that do it. Seriously, let's think about this for two seconds - shouldn't it be obvious why some would choose to be quiet about it? Really, it's a wonder any suicidal person survives their urges, when they get to hear such lovely remarks as these.

So in my opinion, in addition to providing helpful links, I think perhaps it would be a good idea to take appropriate admin action against those who try to troll anyone who outs themselves as being suicidal. Privately provide helpful information to the suicidal poster, delete the post proclaiming suicidal intentions, and also stamp out the trolling. That way, neither the trolls, nor attention-grabbers, nor the genuinely suicidal are encouraged; you provide helpful links so that professional help can be sought, which is all you can really do in this kind of scenario; and liability should not be a problem.

Just my two cents.

#43 Parafoxical

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 05:55 PM

Okay. Just found the thread that brought about this question. I would edit my last post, but that seems somehow dishonest. Ah well, I came in too late to the excitement. My apologies.

Anyway, I stick by my earlier recommendations. But after reading the thread, I think I can understand why some of you feel derisive, even if I don't fully agree. I'd comment further, but I'm too unfamiliar with Omera (and too much of a newbie to the forum itself) to have any valid opinion on the matter. Just thought I'd come back and add a quick "Ohhh, I get it" here. ;)

#44 wren

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:32 PM

One thing that hasn't been brought up is that, well, there are some rites of magic centered on suicide.

There's the Jainist purging of karma through fasting-unto-death. There's that one chaos magic reincarnation ritual. There is bodily sacrifice to the spirits to consider. Don't forget the mythical Formation of the Rainbow Body, which starts after one wills oneself to death.

We have a different view of life and death than most other people, and some of those views may make suicide appealing despite whatever the DSM-V has to say about it. Death can also be a tool. This is the issue that I think really needs discussing moreso than what hotlines and spreadsheets to forward to reporters of suicidal thoughts. I don't at all advocate suicide, but police reporting and conformation to societal norms seems antithetical to the freedom of intellectual expression needed to discuss the occult.

#45 R. Eugene Laughlin

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:05 PM

Suicide threats worthy of intervention wouldn't look anything like what you're talking about, Wren.
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#46 wren

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 09:17 PM

I agree. But I can see how some might think the difference isn't large enough to not intervene. Personally I would want to intervene if someone tried that chaos magic ritual, that thing is seriously ethically troubling.

#47 Rose

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 01:19 AM

We should put this in the book shop. <3 Just in case someone is struggling and doesn't announce it. We count as freaks and other outlaws, right? ;)

http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/1583227202

#48 TheCusp

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 10:31 AM

View PostParafoxical, on 09 April 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

some genuinely stupid people try to get attention by claiming over and over that they're going to commit suicide, as a sort of emotional blackmail to garner sympathy or even compliance from those around them

My cousin just tried to "kill herself" on Friday by taking a bunch of pills. Anyone who "tries" to kill themselves with pills deserves a slap in the fucking head.
It was total emotional blackmail. Afterwards she was accusing everyone of not caring and not being there. She's getting no sympathy from anyone. In fact, my grandmother is throwing her out of the house, which she completely deserves.
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#49 arjil

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 01:41 AM

quite apart from anti troll measures and appropriate suicide prevention resource links (which are good ideas),
the thing that jumps immediately to my mind is the creation of a servitor, entity, or spell to help such people through it and guide them to the help they need- glamourbomb style so they see it with the link and just Cast that shit on them without mentioning it to them (to avoid liability and dumbass problems).
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just a thought, and not what you guys were pondering, but that's how I tend to roll with things.
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#50 Kebechet1587

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 06:30 PM

Considering my recent attempts to try to make an addition to an EXISTING police report (on a violent rape by a sociopath who is currently stalking other women) in a local area, and how ridiculously difficult it was to actually get someone worthwhile on the phone, let alone reading my emails..... even if it was possible to find out where the person who is threatening suicide lives, based on my experience it is incredibly unlikely the report to the police would go anywhere.

It has been mentioned that even if the police could be notified that it would likely cause more harm than good, in the form of children being taken away etc. To that, as someone who grew up with a mother with schizophrenia, and violent mood swings... I have to say that I wish someone had seen my mother's issues and actually made a report. Maybe I wouldn't have grown up in a household that was full of neglect, except for when the sickly sweet attitudes followed by screaming and beatings came. The stagnation of the situation, the fact that no one did anything, that no one even tried...that is what made my life and the situation worse over the years. There's a reason why my parents never called the police when I ran away multiple times as a child. It was a small town, and there were only so many roads to take. I was caught each time because of the simple fact that my mom had a car, and I didn't. The police stir things up, the police cause things to happen, when you can actually get their attention...which it seems is sadly rare.

My point is, we should never refuse to interfere in a situaiton out of fear of "making it worse" interference causes change. Interference means maybe, just maybe something will get done, or at least someone on the other end may know that someone tried. That alone would have meant all the world to me when I was a kid. The question isn't whether you will make things worse, its "do I feel like I have the authority to make reasonable judgements on this myself?" If it's something you actually care about, maybe do a reading if you're not sure. We're all practitioners of the Art here. By that definition, we are people who make change happen in accordance with our Will. If we actually care, we NEED to act, or we disrespect the very nature of our selves.

While I understand this thread is about coming up with policy, maybe we should be taking a look at our attitudes of how we approach any situation which involves potential harm to self or others, online or offline. Because the fact of the matter is that online or offline you may not know whether someone is serious about suicide, or threats towards others. Yes some people are attention seekers, but that also means that they NEED help. I have no words for how disgusted I am when people ignore the behaviour, or act adversely to someone who needs help, and then pat themselves on the back like they've done good. This is the same attitude that leads to classist shit like taking benches out of public places because you don't want the homeless sleeping on them in your pretty little park. I'm making these connections here because we claim to be trying to understand the nature of the universe, and yet we balk at something as simple as helping the members of our online community. Online, offline, it doesn't matter if we're separated by a screen and 1000 miles of cable, or just on the other side of the neighbor's fence.

Am I bitter? Hell yes I'm bitter. I've been near suicide, I've been beaten, spit on, raped, I've had people physically try to kill me more than once, and if I hadn't had one or two people who actually showed compassion for me in my darkest hours, I might have tried to kill myself. The only thing that stopped me when I was 15 when someone had a knife to my throat to "help me along" was concern for the future of the other person. The world can be a fucking dark place, and if we as people don't know how to face it, if we as mages, world changers, don't know how to face it, we are impotent against it, and any ability to cause change to our world or the worlds of others.

The simple fact that some people want to hand wave away people who they can't tell need help or not, and pretend that it isn't their problem, rather than provide suggestions and referals to people who can help... it's vile, and if we want to change world conciousness, we have to start with ourselves, and understanding the cause and effects of our actions, and that offline, online, it's the same in the end.

You want a policy for this? It had better be a compassionate one. The people who have the highest chance of being held liable are the bullies who drive the people who are suicidal, into the arms of death with their lack of compassion.

#51 Rose

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:36 PM

Kebechet, *standing ovation*

Also, TheCusp, it's disgusting how you took Parafoxical's remarks completely out of context to continue your campaign of mindless, willfully ignorant abuse. Somebody take out the trash, if you please. That is all.

Edited by Rose, 27 April 2014 - 10:43 PM.


#52 VIRAL

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 12:15 PM

From what recall, forums like this one were created with education in mind, we're not "teenchatplace.com" or some online Disneyland erected in spite of some dystopian nightmare-decade around it.

Though it can be very sad when someone you care about, even just an online correspondent or...heck--some radio personality or sumgai in cubicle 8, makes that choice, THAT HAPPENS in the real world.

Online communities get hit with this issue as they mature, it is approached differently by different communities.

Admin here are not ignorant, same with much of the member base. It's probably another maturity-related thing, that doesn't come from treating life like a game of Yugi-Oh and your peers as if they were there only to share imaginary teatime.

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Big Brother does exist though, and we're each of us on at least one of HIS WEBPAGES.

Edited by VIRAL, 31 May 2014 - 12:36 PM.


#53 Vulpecula

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 10:11 AM

I know this is a necropost but I think it I should chime in.

I think the best policy is to not have one.

Their behaviour should be assessed to see if suicidal talk is seen as credible. Maybe they are just having a bad day and perhaps a friend from OC could bring that information to light. Perhaps, it is completely out of character and somebody knows they are going through hell and should call an ambulance.

Policy could kill.

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#54 VIRAL

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 12:52 AM

Look at populations where suicide is trendy. Then look at the *kinds* of stressors they have in common.
Then you can add up the specific types of things that make suicide less than a last resort, or at least feel that way.
Some people actually have real literal reasons to cross those tracks (such as prisoners AT war) and others simply don't understand the value of life (why, facebook must be more important than learning... to swim, for example) While others honestly are not in control of themselves and need help to return to themselves.

Edited by VIRAL, 27 March 2015 - 03:23 PM.


#55 ChaosTech

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 06:58 AM

Omera was banned from being suicidal right? I hope that kid's alright as dark and annoying as he could be?


For nearly 20 years I meditated on and studied that which has no name, but is absolute, infinite, beyond both small and large. Finally one day I realized the limits of my sentient consciousness. It has all power over whether we are it or dual. There is no choice of the nondual, for choice is dual. Just be, live, do what you will, with love and wisdom. As Hermes said, in a time yet unborn, all shall be one, and one shall be all. True enlightenment has nothing to do with attainment. It's an inner peace, that there is nothing to be done, I call it surrender to the Spirit.

#56 Morrigan

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 11:47 AM

No he was banned for number of things. None of which were being suicidal. As of a few weeks ago he was alive and well.
Cast Wide the Circle: Place for my musings and the occasional book review.
The Art of Stealing Fire : My Online Magical Journal
Big mountain, wide river
There's an ancient pull
These tree trunks, these stream beds
Leave our bellies full
They sing out I am going to stand my ground
You rise to me and I'll blow you down
I am going to stand my ground
You rise to me and I'll blow you down

#57 RoseRed

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 01:07 PM

I really hope he gets the help that he needs.
When my wings get tired I grab my broom.

#58 VIRAL

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 02:40 PM

That's my buddy! WTF did I miss? Besides APPX. a year of computer access....





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