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On Why I Want To Study The Lhp And Not The Right


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#21 The Stalking Hyena

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 03:05 AM

Here's a thought, though not so much as a criticism as a philosophical point:
Given what Brennan said, Nothing does not exist. You can neither escape from it or merge with it and there can't be any paths leading to it because it is "nothing". If this is considered, how can there be a "path" that leads to what does not exist?
Now, another question arises, how in the HELL does one find a use for that in life if there was never any use for it to begin with? At the same time, how can one oppose a non-existent concept (which ironically does exist by virtue of it being a concept?)?
And another thing, where did you get the idea that RHP leads to the Ain Soph as you define it? This begs further clarification of what you mean by said path, assuming it really is a path and not a projection developed in the philosophy of your path (and theirs!) in order to define itself in relation to an what it opposes.

But what do you mean by wisdom? Surely "general wisdom" can't apply, particularly since you are rejecting one way in favor of another. That is, you cannot be wise about something you think you know - you must have some degree of real experience and this not just a one time thing but a succession exposures.
Is the ego an isolated thing that can sufficiently be boosted or even really destroyed? Isn't it like a construct developed from things like sensation, perspective, location in time? In the process of boosting, it would seem one would have to find a stable solidity, right? Yet in seeking this stability - which some say the ego is really doing for the sake of the whole organism - isn't one laying one's self open to be destroyed by forces that are percieved, rightly or wrongly, as being stronger than one's self? That is, in finding strength in terms of self value, what happens when that value becomes untenable in the face of opposition? Let's say you are in a situation in which if you do not submit, you are destroyed but if you do submit you get to live. In that situation, how can your principles apply?

I have heard "self diefication" with regards to LHP, but I am forced to wonder at it and question whether this is a given result of your positions. If you became a "certain diety" yourself, wouldn't you expect some kind of worship in order to be a diety (that is, by definition)? Or would you be a "god" without followers? In this case, reflecting back to the original statement regarding the "path of the Ain Soph", of what use is it to become a "god" that is not worshipped, assuming one does not wish to become what one rejects?

On critical thinking, not to be a smart ass, but did you gain any or all of your conceptions from a book or series of books? Do you trust the authors? Or, did you think these things up yourself and define them as being in opposition of an RHP conception you have only vaguely defined with terms like "certain book" and "certain god"? If there is a criticism in this, it is merely to point out that you might have a series of contractions that are based on prejudices and a lack of information. But that could be said of anybody (including me).

My understanding of Darwinian theory is that "fittest" and "strongest" are not synonymous. In fact, some of the strongest creatures on Earth have been slain by microscopic entities that we ourself wipe up everyday with disinfectants. The strong and weak dichotomy is not something that you can fix in place for all time, just in the moment, in context. I could see a discipline of thought based on the notion of "always being strong", yet being strong is not the same as being smart. One thing Nature has proven in her Darwinian ruthlessness is that weak creatures with brains outlast the braun in many cases - but always under the aegis of adaptablity. They say we come from rodents that changed into monkeys.

I am not saying you are confused, BTW - just that there is more to consider and concieve is one is to bravely question one's self for the sake of self knowledge and personal certainty. Of course, you have to look in your heart, even if it stone cold, to find out whether anything you said is worthwile to pursue. I have heard various ranges of description for RHP and LHP, covering extremes of navel gazing in the former case and pure pychotic criminality in the latter. The descriptions you have given seem incomplete unless you wish to define being LHP only in those terms. For me, I am forced to ask if are we talking a characterization of Vama Marga/Vamachara - which I am told is the original "LHP" pre-Blavatsky, or something more akin to the Order of Nine Angles? It probably doesn't matter if we keep those excluded in favor what you are stating, yet I am curious. I guess I should quit being an asshole and ask you where you get your info and how you constructed your path because the goals you seek to fulfill are dependent on the construct, and that is why I think you seek feedback.

I don't expect an answer to any of the above, just hopeful something I said/asked gives at least a little food for thought - not just for you but for me too. Nothing is indestructable.

That wasn't a pun. ;)

Edited by The Stalking Hyena, 30 November 2013 - 03:13 AM.

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#22 omera

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 03:17 AM

To be honest, most of these people don't know their own shit, and theres a subtle hint of whining when they object a philosophical point against the LHP.

I don't read philosophy, not socrates, not Rand- I seek bits here and there, maybe Neitzche seemed knowledgeable and other places resonated stupidity and jew-hate. But these things have no pragmatism to them.


I have my own. "Listen to the Rogue, his lies are as important as the truth" is a simple axiom of observing human nature I coined out of experience. Pay attention to liars, thieves and scammers: they pull it off.
Spide"Cadius the Swift was only a slave, but under the wing of the emperor he was given the highest treatment a slave of messaging could acquire. He descended down the spiraled staircase of that dungeonesque castle and nodded to the guards as he was allowed out. He passed out of the Court of the Black Senate and beyond the defending walls surrounding the tower. The massive structure's only gate groaned wide open, a yawning maw announcing the departure of a traveler from the keep. Necessarily, the gate -was- a maw. As Cadius lightfootedly passed down the main street of Roma Diabolus, he got one glorious look at the daemonic head of Plutonicus glaring out idealistically toward the city's main gate and the vast expanse of an infernally twisted market screamed and yelled about its products before Main Street jutted the black cobblestone tongue of that monstrous symbol into the womb of the world."

#23 Nalyd Khezr Bey

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 10:38 AM

View Postomera, on 30 November 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

To be honest, most of these people don't know their own shit...
One can only honestly say things about oneself. And you may be relatively correct about liars, thieves and scammers pulling it off but I would question the use or quality of what they pull. There are a handful of OC members here that seem to "pull it off" (I know I do and I can only really speak for myself) and yet you have given no indication of paying attention. You are where you've always been because you are only lying to yourself.

View PostNameless, on 29 November 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Could you please elaborate on why they are incorrect?
Sure. Once again, ALL ideas are incorrect. Only you can come to the "why" of that.

Edited by Nalyd Khezr Bey, 30 November 2013 - 11:10 AM.


#24 omera

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 01:46 PM

This forum has ideas and tidbits but other than that its impractical to me, why would I pay so much attention when really I just hate the internet? Minimal time on this crap and more time doing magick.

Study the forum or study the art of war... Study the forum or go engage in a hookah covenant... Study the forum or go watch youtube videos.
Go get laid, or study the forum?

Edited by omera, 30 November 2013 - 01:47 PM.

Spide"Cadius the Swift was only a slave, but under the wing of the emperor he was given the highest treatment a slave of messaging could acquire. He descended down the spiraled staircase of that dungeonesque castle and nodded to the guards as he was allowed out. He passed out of the Court of the Black Senate and beyond the defending walls surrounding the tower. The massive structure's only gate groaned wide open, a yawning maw announcing the departure of a traveler from the keep. Necessarily, the gate -was- a maw. As Cadius lightfootedly passed down the main street of Roma Diabolus, he got one glorious look at the daemonic head of Plutonicus glaring out idealistically toward the city's main gate and the vast expanse of an infernally twisted market screamed and yelled about its products before Main Street jutted the black cobblestone tongue of that monstrous symbol into the womb of the world."

#25 The Stalking Hyena

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 04:18 PM

The sound of the "Will to Power":


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#26 Brennan

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 05:37 PM

It isn't 'or', it's 'and'.
Hand in hand.
Ampersand.




#27 Orlando

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 01:02 AM

I know that on this forum links are frowned on without some personal input by the poster, but I’m not a Kabbalist, and this link below is quite good. I just saw it on another forum, and thought this thread could do with seeing it too.

http://hermetic.com/...ah/046_kab.html

#28 Nalyd Khezr Bey

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 01:05 AM

View Postomera, on 30 November 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

This forum has ideas and tidbits but other than that its impractical to me, why would I pay so much attention when really I just hate the internet? Minimal time on this crap and more time doing magick.
Doubtful. You probably think you're "doing magick" but what you say throughout your posts on OC gives no indication of even knowing what magick is about to even know that there is something you should do. What has what you call magick done for you? Are you where you want to be?

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Study the forum or study the art of war... Study the forum or go engage in a hookah covenant... Study the forum or go watch youtube videos.
Go get laid, or study the forum?
This is rubbish man. These are your choices? Are you being serious? Also, I never said to study the forum. I would be the first one to tell you to get the fuck off of it.

And back to this LHP thing. Nameless, you asked in your initial post if you missed something important or confused any concepts; the "left-hand path" has little to do with what you described. Those are just trappings. Those particular trappings may be relatively necessary for you personally but they are not representative of any "left-hand path", nothing is. To a certain extent by defining or attempting to define what the LHP is and asking if you're getting it correct is a sign of right-hand path thinking; religious thinking; "here is the doctrine I believe". Someone on the left-hand path (from a RHP perspective) could be called a Gnostic; they seek out direct experience and they make up their own damned minds about it. That's it. However, those who have taken these steps know from that direct experience that there are no paths worth walking. There is simply who you are right now and where you are going. Paths only take you where others have been and the Gnostic wants to be anywhere but there.

#29 The Stalking Hyena

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 02:38 AM

Mumon's comment:
"Look Mu! No hand path!"
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#30 voidgazing

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 03:54 AM

OK right off the bat I need to say again that LHP and RHP as they are being used here are modern misinterpretations of ideas from India and are generally really (IMHO) shitty concepts. They are Edsel. They are New Coke. Facial Tattoos. They do no one any good.

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First of all, I don´t want to follow a path which seeks being absorbed by the ain soph, what is the real use in your life if all you want is to gather with the nothingness?

Build your castles high, leave your mark, Ozymandias! Watch the fucking tide wash it away. Life's use is to be lived, and no more. Your name is written on water, just like mine. And thank the powers for that. Seek instead to become.

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The LHP seeks to become stronger in this world and boost your ego, not destroy it; your main aim is to become wiser.

This is illusion followed by delusion. If you can manage to check off number 3 first, you will realize that strength is relative, and always inadequate. One's estimation of the self is either based on truth, flat and brutal, or one is an idiot. False confidence and false humility are the duckface of personal development, the spray on tan of enlightenment. DOUCHEBAGGERY, I SAY!

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The LHP is about self-deification, not bending your knees before a certain god, who cares too little about your goals or intentions.

To misquote Groucho, I would not worship any pantheon that would have me as a member. Who are you, to be a god? Do you suck your own dick, too? Gods are useful to humans because they let us become more than we already are. Ganesh is better at removing obstacles than I; I can learn from Ganesh. You betray your cultural upbringing here as has been said: Abrahamic faiths are transactional. Make a promise, pay a fee, receive heaven or the conquest of the Akkadians or whatever the fuck. Drop that baggage. Very few gods desire your knees to bend. Avoid those ones. The rest, well, they seem to like to help those that resonate with them- just like we do.

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The LHP is about critical thinking and requesting the “whys” of things, not following a certain book because some authority said so. Morality is something you decide upon, choosing upon what you believe to be correct.

To actually follow the 'RHP' requires exactly the same thing. Abdicating our responsibility to choose the right thing to do, to any authority including books, priests, and alien mind rays, is an utterly amoral act. A man who does not murder because (tho he wants to) the book says not to, is not a man at all, but a slave. A murderous fuck just WISHING he could sink that knife in to your back. A man who murders you because he has decided he should and that it is right is still more 'moral' than that first guy. Of course he's also a murderous asshole, but at least he isn't a slave. The trick is WHY now, brown cow. Understand the world in terms of actions, consequences, and compassion. Have the intestinal fortitude to act on the understanding. That is moral.

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The LHP has a Darwinian mindset, which means the survival of the fittest; “blessed are the strong and cursed are the weak”.

No it doesn't. It just disguises 'being a dick' with fancy pants talk. Here is Darwin: A grove of white trees, and on them white moths, and above them birds, ever watchful and waiting to eat them. Betimes a moth is born black, unlucky and fated to die young. Suddenly a coal fired factory comes to town, and the trees turn black. A few mothly generations pass. Betimes a moth is born white, unlucky and fated to die young.

Tell me grasshopper, which moth is strong? This is the secret to understanding evolution and why people who say "Darwinian" in that way are really saying "Do-what-I-want-ian" but lack the testicles to be honest about it.

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There might be other factors involved, for example, Harab Serapel , could be understood as a rejection of love.

A rejection of who now? Why ever in the fuck would you want to do that? To hide from pain? Is that worth the price of hiding from a huge part of why life is worth living, a power stronger than all others? Or is it because with love comes vulnerability (as if existing without vulnerability were a thing you could do)... Cowardice or stupidity? Gosh I can't decide.
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#31 voidgazing

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 04:03 AM

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I don't read philosophy, not socrates, not Rand- I seek bits here and there, maybe Neitzche seemed knowledgeable and other places resonated stupidity and jew-hate. But these things have no pragmatism to them.

Brotha you crackin me UP. Do you also find the works of Alfred Jarry wanting? Oh wait- you haven't read them, because they suck. Because you haven't read them?

Read Plato. He's as worth it as your man Musashi. Do not bother with Rand. That isn't philosophy, its a very long, dryly worded example of what was wrong with Rand's mind and soul.
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#32 Qaexl

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:29 AM

View PostThe Stalking Hyena, on 30 November 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

Here's a thought, though not so much as a criticism as a philosophical point:
Given what Brennan said, Nothing does not exist. You can neither escape from it or merge with it and there can't be any paths leading to it because it is "nothing". If this is considered, how can there be a "path" that leads to what does not exist?

I'm not sure what Brennan was saying so I'm responding from my point of view.

Nothing inherently exists, and inherently does not exist. Meaning, there is an "origin" (that is not origin) from which existence and non-existence emerges from.

Form, all the things that seem solid and tangible: the trees, the rock, the computer, the website, the forum, sensations of sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, emotions of fear, joy, anger, pride, lust, charity, affection ... the thoughts, idealizations, rationales, rationalizations, justifications, thought-forms, personas, personalities, "souls", god-forms -- none of this have inherent existence and emerges from a place-that-is-non-place; all being created and destroyed, passing and arising ceaselessly.

So it is neither a matter of "destroying the ego" or "strengthening the ego", as the ego (in all the senses people ascribe to) is simply another form that arises and will eventually pass and dissolve. The ego is not that special :-)

In all of this, there is awareness. There is an "observer", that experiences all these different forms, in all its different ways. But you cannot define it. The process of defining that which is observing is an attempt to create a form around that observing, and that form itself transient and not-inherently-existing. Any definition, word, label, abstraction or concept that you create to describe, model, or communicate about awareness is never awareness itself, and will also arise and pass, created and destroyed. Awareness "appears" (in the sense that it can be hidden, but it isn't really hidden) whenever one is aware of a form, that is, one experiences the form. The form is itself never real, as it is always transient, but the act of experiencing, that is, the exercise of awareness, is itself always a constant. But the tricky thing is that, as soon as you attribute a constancy into that awareness, you've created a form, which is inherently transient :-)

That's one of the first insights, that is, "wisdom". Wisdom is not experience or knowledge, wisdom is insight of the true nature of forms, of all forms including the form you've created to define "me". You do this by examining, by investigating and observing forms as they arise and pass, and perceive its transient nature.

The second insight comes from when you realize that ... there is only one Observer peeking out through each of the different forms. When two people sit together and observe each forms as they arise and pass, it becomes obvious that we can talk about "point of view" because it is the same Observer that is looking out from different forms. How can that be? Yet you can experience this insight. Things are not as separated as we'd like them to be.

It also has implications, that what you think of as "you", is not really you. How can it be, if your notion of 'self' is merely something transient? Your real "you" is that single Observer that is experiencing all things, all beings, in all the times, in all the places.

That leads to the third insight. That the things you crave for and desire for, are at its deepest level, seeking recognition of that Observer. Yet at the same time, there are things we avoid, and are frightened of, yet those things, are also the same Observer. When awareness becomes fixated and attached to the objects of cravings (that are transient) and avoids and denies the objects of aversion, it "forgets" it's nature of Observer. This is fundamental, or existential suffering, that weird, subtle, persistent nagging feeling of dissatisfaction you feel, no matter what you do, or what you experience.

Love is the experience of being and knowing you are connected, that the differences you see are artifacts of transient forms (no matter how solid they seem), that what separates you from others is the very thing that separates you from recognizing your true nature and generates existential misery. As humans, it is love we seek and crave for, though we often confuse it with romance, affection, attachments, and lust.

In the LHP, it isn't about strengthening the ego. It's about testing this assertion that your true nature is this singular Observer, no matter how "extreme" the experience. It's easy to test this assertion when you're in an ashram or a monastery, when you're sitting on the cushion and deliberately peel away your desires and aversions. But can you recognize this true nature when you're deliberately drinking past the point of alcohol poisoning? Can you recognize this true nature when you're sitting in a smashan, watching human bodies coming in to be cremated every day? Can you recognize this true nature when you're running around butt naked? Can you recognize this true nature while you are starving to death? Can you recognize this true nature when you've summoned a swarm of hungry ghosts to eat your body and your soul? Can you recognize this true nature when you're bathing in your own excrement and eating your own shit?

Without first doing the preliminary ascetic practices to attain those insights, to recognize and have faith in your fundamental nature, it is easy to think that LHP is a way to exalt your desires and do away with the things you don't want. When you do, you are reinforcing the attachments to these transient forms, binding you more and more tightly to the wheel of karma. And the gods will let you do this, let you reinforce your attachments and become more miserable until your existential misery is screaming, "enough! enough! oh God, I've had enough!" Some beings require a tremendous amount of misery before they learn. In other words: this too is also a path :-)

It's like what Nyald said in a different thread, what you'll hear from a lot of folks: wherever you go, there you are. East or west, right or left, take a step in any direction, and you'll eventually find your way home :-D

Namaste

#33 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 04:09 PM

A lot of these replies to Nameless are very intellectual and rational. I have met a number of people who self-define as being on the left-hand path and let me tell you what they are like. They are psychic people who can talk to demons and they do everything that their patron demon tells them to. This seems to be partly religious-style fervour and partly fear of the consequences of disobeying. I usually agree with voidgazing but about this subject I dont: it isn't just a misinterpretation of an eastern teaching. I think the left-hand path is real because these people make it real by being it. It is more devotional than intelllectual. Maybe you think these people only exist in stories, but I have met them.

Nameless you need to ask yourself whether you would like to be something of an abject slave, afraid of the person you are devoted to. If you don't mind that then carry on with the left-hand path. They keep testing you and asking you to go further, to do something a bit more evil each time. I believe you are free to refuse at any stage, but the worrying thing is some of these people I've met don't agree, they seem to feel they have given up their freedom. Presumably they gave it up in return for something, but fancy giving up that.

#34 Nameless

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:22 PM

I will give a more indepth response as soon as possible, some of the posts here are quite meaningful.

I would like to make a clarification, the rejection of love isn´t related to personal experiences with my own understanding of the concept, but rather a loathe towards the ideas it represents from a rational standpoint; to clarify this, I will quote each subdivision of greek love, and state why I have a dislike towards it:

Agape: This is contrary to the selfish nature I morally hold as correct; the eagerness to sacrifice yourself is something pretty dumb if you see it from a rational POV.

Eros: This one leads to a complete disregard of logic and forces your mind to numb itself, critical thinking is avoided and replaced with "feelings".

Philia: It leads to certain dependence on other people, to believe you need X person around or else you´ll feel weak, alone, whatever.

Storge: It is nothing but a mere social construct, something made up to improve the bonds among relatives, but useless for any other objective.

Now if this seems like contradiction to something I´ve said before, I must state this perspective changed as soon as I started studying books by Ford, on which I base my understanding of the LHP.

Edited by Nameless, 04 December 2013 - 06:32 PM.

Spoiler

#35 The Stalking Hyena

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:43 PM

Poetry here. Accursed is Time, the only Enemy to thoughtful replies to the Thoughtful.

Hail OZYMANDIAS and the veiled allegory he Left behind!


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#36 RoseRed

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:52 AM

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Agape: This is contrary to the selfish nature I morally hold as correct; the eagerness to sacrifice yourself is something pretty dumb if you see it from a rational POV

Do you have children?

Part of that selfishness is wanting who you love to be happy and live because them living and being happy makes you happy. It's still selfish.
When my wings get tired I grab my broom.

#37 Qaexl

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:21 AM

View PostSuccubusSherry, on 04 December 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

I think the left-hand path is real because these people make it real by being it. It is more devotional than intelllectual. Maybe you think these people only exist in stories, but I have met them.

Aha! I see. It's like bhakti yoga with an asura.

I'm not sure I characterize that as LHP. I've known people whose teachers they worship are humans verging on cult leader status; whether or not said cult leader is an enlightened being or not, follows conventional mores or not, that devotion is its own wisdom path (including when you go into it ass-backwards). Tragedy tends to follow fixation anyways, regardless of what you are fixated on.

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#38 voidgazing

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:28 AM

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: it isn't just a misinterpretation of an eastern teaching. I think the left-hand path is real because these people make it real by being it.

Oh it is quite real- I just wanted to point out the origin lest anyone think this particular 'lhp' was some ancient practice proven over centuries, cause it ain't.

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Agape: This is contrary to the selfish nature I morally hold as correct; the eagerness to sacrifice yourself is something pretty dumb if you see it from a rational POV.

I'm not sure about 'eagerness', but lets focus on just what you're sacrificing. You. Are. Going. To. Die. Rationality to me says that it must, then, be all about the ride. So what exactly are you scared of parting with, here?

I know several people I would take a bullet for. And they'd take one for me. If I'm hungry they feed me, and I feed them when they are. We defend one another. You bring your man-as-an-island badass self to the party.

You will need help and get none, or you will desire to commit hostile acts and lose the fight. Alone.

It is selfish to love one another, see?

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Eros: This one leads to a complete disregard of logic and forces your mind to numb itself, critical thinking is avoided and replaced with "feelings".

That is quite true, but strategically of use only if you are an immortal android. What the fuck has you so busy you have no time for feelings?

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Philia: It leads to certain dependence on other people, to believe you need X person around or else you´ll feel weak, alone, whatever.

Only if you do it wrong. In any case, you are utterly and always dependent on other people. We all are, for our very survival.

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Storge: It is nothing but a mere social construct, something made up to improve the bonds among relatives, but useless for any other objective.

It actually has neurochemical and other 'physical' basis... es. Bases? Social constructs grew around these evolved traits, not the other way around. In any case, it is indeed useless for any other objective. Tangerines are useless for any objective besides a pleasant snack. That don't make them useless, though.

Someone fed you when you were a squalling helpless spawn. You have good ol' Storge to thank for not having been thrown in a river or left to starve because you were very loud, stank, and like all of us rather inconvenient.

From fear does this path originate, mmm, yesss. Its all about reducing vulnerability. Emotionally, this merely means cutting off an aspect of the experience of life. Physically, intellectually, this is like making long term plans for what to do with your new ice sculpture. We are bags of meat. We have nothing to lose at all in the end, doomed to dust.

Paradoxically, it seems to me that it increases vulnerability to an untenable degree.
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#39 RoseRed

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:25 PM

Have you read the Satanic Bible by Lavey? It seems to me that most of your answers can be found there.
http://www.amazon.co...ist+bible.lavey
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#40 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 02:19 PM

View PostQaexl, on 05 December 2013 - 01:21 AM, said:

Aha! I see. It's like bhakti yoga with an asura.
-Qaexl

Yes, that is exactly what I meant, although to be fair that mainly covers theistic Satanism. There are some who claim to be atheistic Satanists, including followers of Lavey who RoseRed mentioned above. I find it hard to believe that it can be truly atheist. For example, one of the leading members of the forum I frequented before this one says she is an atheistic Satanist. One time she posted the picture of Babalon and the Beast from The Ninth Gate and said to me , "Ive made some subtle and telling amendments to this, can you spot them?" I have to say I couldn't spot them, and I wondered how she can be privy to these kind of insights without having any belief in gods or demons- to me that's impossible.





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