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Batrachian Gods And Archetypes


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#1 Kuroyagi

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 01:13 AM

Has anyone here worked with or researched them? The toad, the frog, the leaper (between)? I'd be interested in hearing everyone's opinions and experiences. From the witches' use of toads as familiars and trance-inducers to Heqet, the Eight the Ogdoad, and frogs in popular mythてぇthe batrachian archetype is a very popular and useful one!

#2 wren

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 01:46 AM

I have. For me, the frog is an archetypal celebrant linking the heavens with the earth through prayers of thanksgiving. Listening to frog song after the rains fall and quench the parched land is nice.

#3 Kuroyagi

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:40 PM

I have reread Andrew Chumbley's article about 'The Leaper Between' that gives a good overview of the Batrachian type with a focus on a European context. The frog, or esp. toad-bone amulet was especially used to control the weather and rain, animals and let someone fall in love with the practitioner, but was also used to repell. What is especially interesting to me personally is the mention of that type as a form of token for increased magical potency itself- like any in itself ambigous symbol, god and type, it can stand for magic per se and magical power essentially; there, in that Anglican context of the cunning man and wise-woman it also functions/ed as a form of self-initiation to a certain kind of 'gnosis'- the sorcery of the toad-man.

#4 wren

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 12:38 AM

I bracketed off my research on the toad bone so that I could speak strictly from experience, but Chumbley certainly seems to have the cajones to back up what you say here. The Grimoire of the Golden Toad and The Leaper Between both strike me as well 'researched' works. If the extracts I've read from Qutub had made more sense, and the price of his works been less, I would almost certainly make understanding Chumbley's corpus a priority.

On a practical note, frog tastes good, and can be hunted with minimal fuss by even children. Spare, an influence on Chumbley, suggests that the only gods one needs are the ancestral animals. Hence, it seems that the frog makes a prime target for theophagic ritual. This suggests that (unsurprisingly) the important element in the toadbone crucifixion is neither the inclusion of christian archetypes, nor even the inversion of christian archetypes, but the rite of sacrifice and communion. Not having done the full monte, this is just informed speculation.

#5 aurelian

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:39 PM

This is an excellent blog entry by someone I chat with occasionally about the Toad Bone ritual, since you lot are interested:

http://rootandrock.b...-toadwitch.html

#6 Kuroyagi

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 02:05 PM

Two things I noticed that I could append here: there is a quantitatively strong, as well as qualitatively powerful astral [Sabbatic] component to this rite meaning that according to my experiments there, it can do with the barest physical expressions although supports physiological active-yogic ones. (This astral component is alluded to by Chumbley in ONE when he speaks about the ‘Three Sojourns’ in the symbolically dense, imaginative language of pathworkings).

Secondly, this 'gnosis of the toad' is a kind of Abyss-crossing pathway-experience. For now let me formulate it like this: there is the ‘normal’ elementally put: fire-spirit one- comet like ascension or the raising of the foundation with a wider cosmic scope and then this special one sub-stratum of the toad-rite that I’d describe as the ‘deeper’ water-spirit one, more involution and atavistic delving-under [behind the Tree: ‘going in at the lower aegis of Yesod and resurfacing in the ‘Mauve Zone’=on the very upper region of Daath mingling with the very lowest of the white brilliance of Kether], connected to the intuitive application of the words ‘water’ and ‘root’ as used e.g. in the Daodejing; a diving under process even beyond the gates of oblivion with something of a wormhole effect. Maybe here, the effect of bringing something back from the Beyond is more pronounced versus the 'conventional' rarefication and improvement through change-aspect: more of a 'leaping yonder and back again'.

aurelian: Thanks for that link. I’m quite busy with/full of my own research and it's good to see anothers' experiences centred around that rite and cycle of myth, even if some things are/can be only hinted at. ;)

#7 aurelian

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:20 PM

Nice. I'd be interested in your thoughts on the matter when you're done researching. I have at least an academic interest in the Toad Bone ritual, not sure if I want to go through with it, it's an awful lot of responsibility to go with all that power.

#8 Kuroyagi

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:16 AM

The rites and magics and (arche)-types we are attracted to, as well as the degree we pursue them have much to do with a deep belonging to them, a certain congruence of character to them; the same goes for the expression of ones experiences and the parts one takes away from them. Reciprocally, ones being serves as a filter through that that the gods, familiars and types communicate, a sort of prism that refracts their meanings projecting them to the world. Very much also depends on ones environment. The colleague in the blog-link seems to be living a very rural life, like I also did more or less till I was 20, now I mostly am living in the city. To me Magic/esp. witchcraft always has to do with a deep sense of locality and to (re-) acquire ones surroundings for oneself. The old archetypes will manifest in any environment, be it in the woods or on some space station, I'm pretty sure of it. :P

Somehow those components of the rite of again 'raising', resurrecting the bones of an animal one has killed personally and accompanying them from the underworld seems like a very deep awakening experience, it feels absolutely ancient in its structure...maybe something to that effect was also mentioned by Ginzburg in his study 'Eccstasies' on the Witches Sabbath, am not sure will have to look it up again...

#9 Kuroyagi

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:10 PM

It will sing and it will spin
‘cause there’s Nothing within.

One (hitherto unpublished) detail about the bone as it floats and lightly spins on the waters so that others who ‘know’ will see that I know. I’m not a stickler for secrecy but rather for courtesy and discretion and also don’t want to be spammed by angered dogmatic trad. Crafters or Sabbatic Cultists. ;) In the cityscape such arch-types can materially manifest in other, different and creative ways and patterns: posters, toys, videos, electronic and astral ghosts etc. I have written a thread on some urban witchery called citymancy here. I’ll update it with a new (-ly retrieved) post, too.

#10 aurelian

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:31 PM

View PostKuroyagi, on 08 April 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

It will sing and it will spin
‘cause there’s Nothing within.

One (hitherto unpublished) detail about the bone as it floats and lightly spins on the waters so that others who ‘know’ will see that I know. I’m not a stickler for secrecy but rather for courtesy and discretion and also don’t want to be spammed by angered dogmatic trad. Crafters or Sabbatic Cultists. ;) In the cityscape such arch-types can materially manifest in other, different and creative ways and patterns: posters, toys, videos, electronic and astral ghosts etc. I have written a thread on some urban witchery called citymancy here. I’ll update it with a new (-ly retrieved) post, too.

Well, I am not one of the stodgy old traditionalists, but I am a traditionalist, and am very concerned about the integrity of traditional witchcraft. Promise I won't throw a conniption, as long as you don't say too much lol. After all, what Chumbley published cannot be unpublished. There are a lot of blinds in the work, tho.

Yes, you are right in the details...and if you actually know, you also know that it doesn't 'sing,' the bone hisses. I haven't done the ritual, but I am privy to the lore. Useless details, anyone who isn't prepared for this would be driven mad. It's pre-Sabbatic, but good for them for keeping it alive. This is good magic.

#11 Kuroyagi

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:35 PM

Wow...I was actually kiddin' and didn't think that anyone would really be dogmatic about some scrpitures when he can feel the magic itself...but good luck to you, I guess.

#12 aurelian

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:43 PM

Interesting. I'm dogmatic? Never thought of myself that way, at all. Guess it's the price of admission. I can and will not apologize for being a traditionalist. I believe that the knowledge belongs to humanity--those few who can will find it--those few who can, will, and the rest will not.

Don't mean to cunt you off at all, I do not disapprove. Knowledge is sacred. What can I say?

#13 Imperial Arts

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:55 AM

View Postaurelian, on 09 April 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

After all, what Chumbley published cannot be unpublished. There are a lot of blinds in the work, tho.

I haven't found any information in his work that has not been available to the public since long before Chumbley put it on paper. His chief contributions are stylistic, but his content is all the same old "western esoteric tradition" that mingles Key of Solomon, Golden Dawn, Levi, and their spinoffs. In regard to authentic traditional witchcraft, he's on par with Gardnerian Wicca, and his work is derived from the same sources. As he put it himself, his intention was to re-create the concept of Witchcraft from available sources, and any connection to secret ancient cults was somewhere between fictional and flimsy.

What some people call "blinds," others (like me) call "mistakes borne of ignorance and idiosyncrasy."
https://www.lulu.com...ibutorId=588142

http://www.lulu.com/...t-22253942.html

"Only the madman is absolutely sure." - Wilson & Shea, Illuminatus!

#14 aurelian

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:17 PM

Ha, I can't say you're wrong about that. I merely object to whoring out witchcraft to the masses, i.e. publishing of rituals of this nature. As for Chumbley, well it's not my sort of craft, but I do find his work to at least make interesting reading. Not quite my style, tho. I'll leave my criticism at that, lest I tick more people off lol

#15 Kuroyagi

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:38 PM

'Yeah we're teen witches and we're all so damn serious'...is what I'm not saying so I post these videos with a batrachian content...in the first one you can observe the extreme width that is characteristic of that archetype: frogs and toads can on the one hand be very thin and jumpy or fat and docile- they basically cover the whole gamut of earth's creatures in relative size and I have also noticed in myself that esp since having started these practices I can very easily increase and decrease my weight, right now I'm on an up-phase (of course) :P


(I bet that guy has never seen ROTJ though)

'Adventure of the (charming) prince'-c'est moi!: song's called 'For the sake of the frog the bells are ringing' remember that old fairy tale: Der Froschkönig? (the frog-prince?) some cool insights in it too!

Edited by Kuroyagi, 30 April 2013 - 09:50 PM.


#16 Kuroyagi

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:07 PM

Cf also this (from Chrono Trigger) :

Edited by Kuroyagi, 30 April 2013 - 10:08 PM.


#17 Morrigan

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 02:55 AM

I lovedChrono Trigger and dear old Frog.

I've worked with Heqet and a few other primevil Egyptian netjer. I find them do have an abyssal quality to them, something that hides just below the light, something that dwells down deep in the mud. They lack the "earth" qualities one might equate with a chthonic deity, rather my expereices have shown them to be full of mud. Their place in creation myths also links them with the chaos of possibility found in the time leading up to Zep Tepi.
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Big mountain, wide river
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I am going to stand my ground
You rise to me and I'll blow you down

#18 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 10:38 AM

I am not sure why I didn't comment on this the first time around; I love frogs and consider them my main totem animal, and I always wear or carry a frog symbol. The problem with having a frog temperament is that you can hide away too much or jump over problems instead of confronting life's challenges. On two occasions I have found frogs in the street and I believe they were familiars that came to me; however I returned them to natural water environments because it is hard to keep them at home without a garden pond.

I was quite excited back in March to read Aurelian's link about the toad bone ritual because I had once come across it in an obscure English occult magazine. It is definitely practised in the north of England, and they claimed it gives you power over people, for example to take a woman away from her partner. I have also heard that a similar ritual is practised by animal loving Pagans, but they make sure to find a dead toad or frog instead of killing one.

#19 SuccubusSherry

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 01:51 PM

It occurs to me that I should add something about the positive qualities of frog temperament, since I only mentioned negative ones. Frogs can negotiate the watery (i.e.emotional) environment skillfully, and they can operate just as well in two worlds at once (this world and the next.)
I think it's true that the toad bone ritual is a lot of responsibility. If a frog or toad crossed your path and you killed it and rushed into doing that it would not just be a cruelty to animals issue, it would also be dangerous to you psychically.

#20 Kuroyagi

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 08:53 PM

SC: I even thought that the qualities you first mentioned are both negative and positive, in certain circumstances instead of charging and confronting (problems and enemies) head on, it can be better to follow a strategy of avoiding trouble whose active side is 'leaping' over it and its passive one is to simply hide; there are schools of even martial arts like ninjutsu that partly propagate avoidance of an enemy as the best and foremost means of 'defeating' him.

: I also noticed the ability of this theriotype to transgress borders- water-land amphibian. This goes deeper to life-death et al.
Morrigan:
Recently I read an interesting article about 'Apotheosis by Drowning in the Greek Magical Papyri' where a falcon is drowned and then deified- symbolic of the died and resurrected god and sun (Ra, Osiris, Horus), in it the Ogdoad is also mentioned. In the anime Sen to Chihiro there is also a frog (great voice acting there, see Japanese version!) who at one point falls into the water seemingly dead but then revives and swims away. That film has great symbolism btw: there is that large 'astral' bathhouse frequented by spirits surrounded by the classsical spirit-barrier of wide still water that only dragons and frogs (and birds) can transgress; lots of filth is washed away and cleansed, gold that the frog is given turns into mud etc...worth checking out.

Another batrachian mention I just remembered was the toad style of the movie Kung Fu Hustle, was fun, too. :)





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