42 replies to this topic

[Arto Kalishian]

What is your purpose of magic? I Is it personal self interests or the perfection and development of the self ? And how do you think you can achieve what you want?

I am new to the forum and trying to know people's perspective here so I know if I fit in this group or I am at the wrong place.

Regards,
Arto

[Shadow-Gnostikoi]

Well, you can use it for both. You can even do it simultaneously. Some authors might tell you that any magick not directed towards "The Great Work" is black magic. I don't think this is true.

As to how you can go about achieving what you want, be it self realization or "selfish magick", you do it through practice. Different systems will use different methods, but there are some core skills that you'll need no matter what paradigm you choose to utilize.

* Concentration - This is one of the most fundamental skills, if not THE most fundamental. You'll need it if you want to be proficient at any sort of mystical work, so it's what is generally recommended first. There are many ways to train concentration, but, as the name implies, it's nothing more than the ability to focus on one thing to the exclusion of anything else. Visualization (holding on to one image in the mind) is usually what's recommended as the best way to train this particular skill, but you can use any of the other senses.

* Insight meditation (Vipassana) - This one trains Insight (Wisdom). This is the one that leads to the self-perfection that is spoken of in so many systems. There are many different ways to train insight apart from Vipassana, but I haven't yet come across any that approach it in such a direct way. Becoming proficient at this particular skill will allow you to know your mind better and thus be able to live better with it.

* Banishing - You'll need it if you happen to attract some undesirable entities to yourself during the course of your work, which is a fair possibility. There are many techniques and methods for banishing, so just pick one that suits you best. I don't think I've ever used this particular one, at least not consciously, but many people seem to think it's important, so I'm including it.

There are other skills, but they might actually get in your way if they aren't a part of the system you're utilizing. So apart from these, just follow whatever your pradigm tells you to practice.

[voidgazing]

I am an explorer. I engage in self-transformation, self-creation, as a part of that. I want to know how it all works. I have learned to do quite a few very practical tricks as a result of my explorations. Everything is sacred, and nothing is sacred.

[Spraypaint]

When I found out the existence of incorporeal beings that can kill me or wreck my day (or life) was actual (as in can have an impact on my life) and that its possible for others to cause pain from distance to me (like Darth Vader does) thought it would be wise to play catch up.

Edited by Spraypaint, 20 July 2012 - 06:18 PM.

[Caliban]

I use magic for various ends but, broadly speaking, my agenda can be described as "the re-enchantment of the world". That is, I seek to inspire a sense of the numinous in those for whom the world is dull and dead. I don't think organized religion really fits the bill anymore, so instead I try to show others the possibilities of the unseen realms. Once they get that glimpse, what they do about it is up to them.

As for my personal work, well, that is personal.

[Riva626]

My magical purpose is to unlock the secrets of the universe, self discovery and advancement are mere by products of this endeavour.

[MatintheHat]

Refining and rediscovering the Self . Exploring and organizing the internal and external worlds.

[Morrigan]

Magic exists both as an alternative to the exiting cultural narrative, and a means of exploration. In a world split along simple dichotomies of black and white, I use magic as a means to fill the rift with color.

[Adumbra]

Perhaps the best way of answering your question would be to contrast magic with science.

Like scientists, occultists claim to possess secret and highly specialized knowledge of the workings of nature and like scientists they use this knowledge towards fulfilling their own ends and desires. But this is where the similarities stop.

The scientist uses technology to master the world while the mage uses magic to develop a relationship with it. An incantation is not a password that gets you what you want, it's a song meant to woo the subject of your spell.

Magic is a way of relating to the world, not a method of dominating it.

The scientific paradigm is based on the often unstated assumption that the observer must remain apart from whatever he observes if he wishes to understand it. This is why social scientists will take such meticulous care to make sure that they do not unconsciously influence the subjects of their experiment through their tone of voice or body language. It is why hard scientists will often remove themselves physically from their experiments and keep them hermetically sealed off from the world. Any identification with the subject risks 'subjectivity' -- the enemy of scientific objectivity. Unfortunately this isn't always possible. When a scientist uses an electron microscope to discover the position or velocity of a particle this very act of observation (the electron beam) causes the particle to deviate from the trajectory it would have taken had he not attempted to observe it. And so we see that the scientific method is ultimately based upon a flawed premise: the distinction between the observer and the observed; of object from subject.

The occult sciences have always been based upon the assumption that EVERYTHING is a part of a greater whole and that nothing exists in a vacuum. Numbers, colors, shapes, sounds, symbols are all interconnected and caught up within a divine harmony. It is this very state of connection which practical magic exploits. Every one of the magical laws is simply another facet of this basic principle of inter-relationship. It is just that there is no fundamental separation between a witch, her spell, and the subject of her spell which allows her magic to work -- and sometimes causes it to fail. Since magic is a living force it cannot be expected to work like a flawless mechanism composed of circuits and logic gates. And despite what you might think, this is actually a GOOD thing!

Magic refutes the essentially lifeless, deterministic paradigm of materialistic science in which all, even the soul, is composed of dead, inter-colliding billiard balls by showing us that the world really is alive and because it is alive, it is capable of being unpredictable, uncontrollable, and to some extent, unknowable. Humans who seek to 'control' magic as if it were electricity will eventually learn that they cannot truly understand anything by isolating it from everything else and subjecting it to one demeaning experiment after another anymore than they could get to know a person by locking them in cage and experimenting on them like a lab rat.

Magic will reveal her deepest secrets to her lovers.

[Qaexl]

Adumbra, on 22 July 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Like scientists, occultists claim to possess secret and highly specialized knowledge of the workings of nature and like scientists they use this knowledge towards fulfilling their own ends and desires.

Total tangent: we've been open-source since about the end of the First Dot-Com Bust. That characterization is past and gone, our species is moving forward.

Generally, the secrets are obvious and have always been so. But if teachers do not call them secrets, a whole swath of people who could have otherwise learned them would ignore it. They are secret only in the sense that we don't pay attention.

Likewise, scientists may have wielded and abused their authority as advisors and explorers, and our modern discovery machine requires a lot of politicking, grants and equipment ... but it has always been meant for individuals to experiment and observe for themselves, not merely read about it in publications and argued second-hand.

So the only thing stopping any of us from the "secrets" is ourselves. Our species wanted the scientific knowledge and occult wisdom to be accessible only to a few. That's all changed with the Internet. Live with the times, man :-)

-Qaexl

[Chasmodai]

Arto Kalishian, on 20 July 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

What is your purpose of magic? I Is it personal self interests or the perfection and development of the self ? And how do you think you can achieve what you want?

It is both except that after a while your perception of 'self' changes.

If you mean, how do you satisfy personal interests or attain a better understanding of your own nature through occult measures, then that depends on which discipline you practice.

[Vivian Zoe]

Because it feels like nothing else, makes me feel closer to divinity, reminds me that there is so much more to this world than that on the physical level, and helps me direct my will instead of waiting for a prayer to be answered.

but mostly because it stirs up a passion in me.

[93rdcurrent]

As Crowley stated, "Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will." No one can define for you what your purpose or goal for magick only you can do that. Hopefully you will decide by discovering what your True Will is. Everyone has a different purpose so the purpose of your magick should also be individual or at least that is how I have come to understand it.

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

93rdcurrent, on 25 August 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

As Crowley stated, "Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will." No one can define for you what your purpose or goal for magick only you can do that. Hopefully you will decide by discovering what your True Will is. Everyone has a different purpose so the purpose of your magick should also be individual or at least that is how I have come to understand it.

Well, the notion of True Will as Crowley promoted it is a bit of religious dogma, every man and woman is s star and all that that implies (that the generalized source of conflict in the world is people not acting in accord with True (capital T) Will (capital W), not following their natural course as the star they are, etc. and so on, all stuff that your handle suggests you're on about promoting too. The ironic thing is that when you break it down, life in this world resolves to utter determinism for the Thelemite, but not for the trogs. The price of Free (capital F) Will (capital W), so it seems, is a little conflict. Heh.

Maybe there is no "purpose" tied to any "should" phrase.

Personally, I use magick to enrich my life in every domain I can, including the lives of those I love and care about directly, and more broadly the lives of my contemporaries and future generations. Is that my purpose? If it is, how would I know?

Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 26 August 2012 - 04:07 AM.

[93rdcurrent]

Well, you may be on to something... Thelema wouldn't be the first religion to have an issue with the conflict that is life. You can see the conflict all through the associations on the Tree (capital T) ;>. I look at it a little bit differently, I will use Kris One's statement (paraphrased) about how the Universe or nature makes millions of experiements but only some rise to the top. The rest are just fodder for cannons. You see it in the insect world very easily. Why not on a Universal level. And we humans see ourselves as somehow above this. We are all experiments of the Universe. If we try to go against the flow, we affect future generations, look at the affects of companies like Monsanto or McDonald's. How do you like that GMO food? Personally, I will live with my understanding of how the Universe operates and do my best to live within the natural order of life as much as I can.

On the other hand you seem to also be interpretting Liber Al for me, should you then be shunned? I will not try and interpret anyone else's personal journel for them. But I will work hard to try and understand my own which I have hopes will help me understand the Universal Will. No guarantees.

[Brennan]

This is a question that has passed through my head many times throughout the years.

I've been practicing and studying systems of magick for 20 years now, and in those 20 years the best answer I can find is simply because I want to. It isn't something that I sought out due to any interest or any reason really, it was actually handed to me. Let's see.. when I was 7, my devout roman catholic dad sent my very agnostic mother an amethyst crystal, thinking she was 'into that sort of thing' - she wasn't - but it sparked an interest in her which resulted in a nice chunk of change being spent on various equipments and books. While her interest dwindled after a few short months, mine only grew. It was so awe-some to me at the time, when I learned that magick (holy shit!) actually exists (!!omghowcool!!). I had no clue what all could be done with it, but I wanted to know how high that mountain goes.. and i still have no clue.

Somewhere along the lines that little boy's dream of calling up a tornado being the pinnacle of magickal skill turned into the realization that stopping one in it's tracks is far more impressive & while I started out with having no real purpose, just a very glittery dream, I find that I aim now to master what I've inherited.

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

93rdcurrent, on 02 September 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

On the other hand you seem to also be interpretting Liber Al for me, should you then be shunned?

As you will, but I'm not interpreting Al, I'm suggesting that maybe it's a load of crap.

[Nalyd Khezr Bey]

Arto Kalishian, on 20 July 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

What is your purpose of magic? I Is it personal self interests or the perfection and development of the self ? And how do you think you can achieve what you want?

Let me start with a couple of quotes from Aeolus Kephas' Homo-Serpiens to help give a context for my own reasoning:

Quote

When it comes to understanding (and eventually practicing) magik [sic], creativity is the key. Individuals must find their particular function. What do we believe when we say we believe in magik? That nothing is true? Or that everything is?

Quote

The primary acceptance of magik is that this world is an illusion. Humanity is a false construct, built by a Demiurge, a false god, to prop itself up. This is the primary error of Consensus, as what must be broken, in a final and devestating fashion, through magik.

So the simple answer is to find my particular function. To expand on that is to say that the purpose of Magick for me is to maintain a line of communication with the denizens of the Otherworld(s) (the Imaginal) to help reify my inherent dream and to simultaneously extract from and impregnate this world with meaning.

[Dagion]

my reason is finding self within the world and/or the world within self. magic is for me finding reality and finding how it works, outside of that whats the point. Magic in its definition is altering reality. finding what that is the key.......

[Reflectionseeker]

Arto Kalishian' timestamp said:

What is your purpose of magic? I Is it personal self interests or the perfection and development of the self ?

Self-interest, completely. When I chucked it up some time ago we were smacked upside the head by the biggest wave of shit you could ever imagine. Nothing like that had ever happened to me before, I had been an extremely 'lucky' person.
So, yeah, maybe not pure self-interest, but the interests of those I love who are affected by the path I choose or lose.

Having said that, development of the self goes with magick. Will higher than ego and all that.
Perfection? No, wholeness.

Arto said:

And how do you think you can achieve what you want?

Now there's an essay.


So you wuz in the right place but it musta been the wrong time.

Edited by Reflectionseeker, 03 September 2012 - 08:21 AM.