7 replies to this topic

[ajense]

How should I decide which Golden Dawn order is the correct one to join? I've read that self initiation is just B.S.

[Chasmodai]

It's not. There are quite a few orders out there besides the GD. Be wary of any group that wants you to take the word of the leader unquestioningly.

[Alice]

That depends entirely on why you're interested in the Golden Dawn at all. Most ceremonialists aren't affiliated with them, and keep in mind that the original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn has long since disbanded. It's not a continuous tradition and no one operating today has the authorization of the leaders of the original order.

You might be better off studying the works of the original order, including Crowley's books, and making your own decisions. I am of the opinion that self dedication is better than joining someone else's tradition, but it must be done slowly and with care, or it is meaningless. Don't think of it as self initiation, think of it as being initiated by the spirit world. Until you are approached by a higher power, you're not really an initiate.

The problem with the Golden Dawn, Wiccan and every other human initiation, is that those don't mean anything either unless the spirit world participates, and sometimes they don't. It's harder to tell with a high priest insisting you're ready. He usually doesn't know.

May you find what you seek,
Alice

[ajense]

Hi, sorry about my short question and calling self initiation B.S because Im sure it's not. I was just tired last night and wanted to post the question so I could possibly have some new answers to think about. I did some research and do know the original order was abandoned. I was looking at http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/ which seems very organized. I live in Colorado and there is an order in Denver that says they're a separate order from any other and dont participate in the politics. I think both of these options would be good.

Now the reason why Id like to join a place I can physically go to is because I can get distracted easily and get overwhelmed through self studies when I start new things. With some guidance with people I can talk to and witness how to perform things, Id be able to get a basic understanding to start my self studies without feeling overwhelmed. I have been diagnosed with adult ADD and just need to accept that and play to my strengths.


Edit: Oh and just noticed that Chasmodai mentioned other orders other than GD. At first I read it as there are many order of GD. I took interest in GD after reading The Black Arts_ by Richard Cavendish. This book gave me a basic understanding of many different studies in the occult, but I was most interested in "The Great Work" and High Magick.

Are there any other orders that practice this that I should research? Im very wary of the for profit organizations that teach things with no basis. Also I dont want to join an order where it is easy to go up in rank.

Thanks for all the help

Edited by ajense, 05 June 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[Chasmodai]

There are several other orders out there - B.O.T.A., Grey School, A:.A:., O.T.O., College of Thelema, and many more. All have membership fees, some more pricey than others. B.O.T.A. is pretty inexpensive, but you probably won't get the structure you need.

How do you feel about grail mythology? Have you read any of Cavendish's other works?

You will know when you are ready to rise in rank. Someone else may tell you, but you know. If you don't think you are ready but are being told that you are, then it's time to go. If something doesn't feel right, pay attention, it's probably not right and you need to fix it. Be cautious and aware about these groups and anyone else who claims to know things. Present company excluded a great deal of knowledge and help can be gained in the O.C.

Edited by Chasmodai, 05 June 2012 - 11:56 PM.

[Alice]

Well, for the most part the people on Occult Corpus don't charge for their knowledge, which adds to credibility. There's nothing inherently wrong with charging for teaching, and doing so allows one to reach a larger audience. Indeed, few if any of the great masters have written books and given them away for free; but the exchange of money creates a motive for deception. Someone who is doing it as a service to the human race and asks no monetary reparation has less (but far from nothing) to gain by falsehood. There are still those who do it just to feed their egos.

I went from teaching what I knew for free to all comers, to charging money for access to lessons; and now I answer questions that catch my interest and write occasional articles for public access, and the rest of what I know is reserved for those am I guided to teach.

Look for groups that stress innovation, personal power, and inner guidance. If an order feels that only the high priest/ess has higher guidance and their word is regarded as dogmatic, get out quick and don't look back.

May you find what you seek,
Alice

[Caliban]

This group is administered by Pat Zalewski, who had the opportunity to study with the surviving members of Whare Ra, the longest continuing temple of the Stella Matutina, which was founded by an early GD initiate, Dr. Robert Felkin, with the active support of original GD Chief W.Wynn Westcott.

Israel Regardie's initiation was also into the Stella Matutina. This was long after Felkin, with his papers, and his first-hand personal knowledge of the teachings and methods of the Isis-Urania Temple under Westcott, Woodman and Mathers, had moved to New Zealand, and the British branch of the SM was foundering by the time Regardie joined.

By contrast, the New Zealand branch remained active until the 1970s, officially closing its temple in 1978. This branch retained a much more robust and well-understood collection of original GD materials, which Zalewski has been making available. Its associated organization, operating out of Montréal, Québec, Canada, I cannot personally vouch for.

My advice is this: study on your own or with like-minded friends in a spirit of sincere aspiration. Do what you can on your own. When the timing is right, you will find yourself presented with an opportunity to work with a group and be initiated if that is what you need. It may not be a GD group - mine was not. It may not look at all like what you expect - mine didn't. But it will give you the experiences you need.

Alice is quite correct that initiation is conveyed from the spiritual world. All that any group can offer with any teachings or ceremonies are tools with which to connect with that world, and support in the endeavor. The GD does not have any special claim to antiquity or authenticity, nor is its system necessarily the best. It is simply the best known. Personally, I find it a little overwrought and cumbersome, rather dated and Victorian at heart. The materials can be studied, contemplated and worked upon without requiring initiation, but care ought to be taken to understand the underlying rationale of the grade structure, as it is the framework on which it was all hung together.

Edited by Caliban, 06 June 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[Alice]

Magic is a living thing, as our culture changes, our spiritual needs change, and so should our magical practices. A GD foundation for a modern tradition is a good idea, but doing things exactly the way Mathers and Crowley did them is dated and uninspired.

If you encounter a supposed teacher who teaches verbatim anything they got from their predecessor, this is not a master, just someone who's good at memorization.

May you find what you seek,
Alice