83 replies to this topic

[Killarican]

I know not everyone agrees with this, but it's a popular "new agey" concept thats on overdrive in the mainstream metaphysical at this moment.

Does no one believe in the reality of the spiritual worlds anymore? Must everything be an "imaginary" part of you in some way?

I dont understand how this can be, when validations on these beings and they're effects on the physical environment AND the human mind is clearly visible, and measurable to some extent, and quite profound.

What do you all think?

[Caliban]

I have been at this for a while, and the longer I am at it, the more deeply I understand my ignorance of what spirits are, how they relate to consciousness in general and my consciousness in particular and what sort of existence they actually have.

I use the "actual spirit entity" model myself for practical reasons - it is easy and it is effective. But I know that the real state of affairs - being for the most part beyond my perceptions - is probably quite different than my mental image of it. That's okay.

It is enough to observe that when I act as though these things were conscious beings with intelligence, motives, etc. that I get results as though I had communicated with beings having intelligence, motives, etc. It could all be in my head, but I doubt it.

However - and this is the point I think a lot of people trip over, creating a lot of misunderstanding on this point - my experience of these things is all in my head. I can only be aware of them and reflect upon them because the experience is mediated by my consciousness. I can analyze my experience, and I can hypothesize over what may be occurring that my senses did not or cannot perceive - but all of this understanding happens in my mind.

This is of course true of all phenomena we experience, all the time. But given the uncanny nature of spirits in general, it has led some to infer that spirits only have existence in consciousness - as much as fictional characters like, say, Sherlock Holmes do. However, one has to remember that there is a very old and well-established school of thought by which things having being in a realm of pure idea are not less but more real than what we experience as physical things.

So, between occultists trying to sound like sophisticated and up-to-date bush psychologists on the one hand, the uncanny and elusive nature of spirits in general in the middle, and the Idealist metaphysics of Plato and much more to the point Neoplatonism - one of the strongest philosophical underpinnings of the Western Esoteric Tradition - on the other, you get the muddle you describe.

Sure, some people believe in spirits, naively. Some believe - equally naively - that it's all in their heads. I know that I don't know what they are, or in what way they may be said to exist, but have observed that acting as though they do produces interesting results. And I treat them as persons because a.) it's traditional, b.) it strikes me as more polite, c.) it suits my aesthetic sense to relate to a world full of intent and conscious being and d.) it works.

Why it works, I haven't the least idea in the world, and I don't believe that the Rosicrucians, Theosophists, Scientologists et cetera do either. They just have a story that works for them. Blind men and elephants all the way around.

Edited by Caliban, 28 April 2012 - 08:38 AM.

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

Killarican, on 28 April 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

I dont understand how this can be, when validations on these beings and they're effects on the physical environment AND the human mind is clearly visible, and measurable to some extent, and quite profound.

To what validations do you refer? What is clearly visible and measureable to some extent?

[Brennan]

I tend to view things from an animistic perspective, one that says that if anything exists.. it somehow, tangibly or intangibly, has an affect on the world at large, however small or profound that may be (never underestimate the power held in the mite in the eye of an ant..). I also take into consideration that effects are lasting, in some shape or form. I have respect for that. It insinuates to me that even the smallest thing has power and have chosen to believe that if it has power, it has some decision on how that power is used - ever gotten a paper cut before? sort of like that - so to me, everything has something which could more or less be called a 'spirit'. What that 'spirit' is.. ..I don't know. I don't know this with anymore certainty that I know the earth is roughly spherical and has an orbit around a star. I would have to experience this phenom first hand in order to have certainty and even then, there is some speculation that everything is simply "inside one's head"...

Now, when I speak to the sky on behalf of someone who's environment needs rain - or less - I address my words to the spirit of the sky, figuring that it understands it's own mechanisms far better that I. Whether or not I'm actually speaking to a spirit.. ..I don't know, it could simply be my enforcement of Will on the world, but I do know that the system I've developed and work well within operates best when the assumption is in place that yes, spirits do exist.

Are there spirits? In the model that I follow.. ..undoubtedly. If only because it is the main model that I have found success with, meaning that it is integral to my system that there is a belief of spirits present. Without that belief, or to be true to that system, without those spirits, I could not have found the successes in magick that I have.

So, are there spirits? Yes, there are... in the spirit model.

Edit: so, in summary, do I believe spirits exist? Oh, yes. Yes I do. Do I understand what a spirit truly is? In the same sense that I can understand what existing in a completely different dimension would be like... which.. I can't; it's too foreign, too alien..

Edited by Brennan, 28 April 2012 - 12:17 PM.

[Spraypaint]

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To what validations do you refer? What is clearly visible and measureable to some extent?

I "disappear" and then I see.

I call it "bowl head" cause thats the best means can describe how I see some spirits.

The other is being in same place but not. Being in two different "layers" of reality at same time.

Please explain how I can measure that?

Cause it is not of something of those of average senses can relate to.

Edited by Spraypaint, 28 April 2012 - 05:34 PM.

[Killarican]

The reason for this post, is because it seems alot of people have contradicting views as their opinions on a collective unconsious, extra sensory perception, and non-physical entity's with free will all dont compliment each other well.


What a lot of people get confused is about is on the term "Subconsious" a psychological term based on the assumption that consciousness is manufactured in the brain. The word is thrown around often along with "Higher Self" and the solipsistic view of "I create my reality".

It's a square block in a round hole scenario... we're using a psychological term to try and explain a spiritual experience despite the underlying assumptions contradicting one another... so now we have theories like "You didn't create it... your subconscious created it." Umm, no, you are "in" your (or rather everyone's) subconscious already "Because we are all one concious" You are controlling it... so if you didn't imagine it before observing it, you didn't create it. Same with meeting entities... if you didn't think it, you didn't create it.

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To what validations do you refer? What is clearly visible and measureable to some extent?

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The other is being in same place but not. Being in two different "layers" of reality at same time.

Please explain how I can measure that?

Cause it is not of something of those of average senses can relate to.

I may have used the wrong word "measured". What I meant to say was, "Conditions in which Verifications are possible"

I will share an anecdote about myself, one of the most profound and life changing moments of my life, but will make it brief & Long Story Short.. I had an entity attached to me for 6 months month of my life... I was a hardcore but curious skeptic about all things metaphysical back then. I was pushed to a point where I couldnt deny it's existence any longer because I had no choice but to accept it AND then Seek help.

Verifications for myself in order include:
-Hearing "voices" in your head, and fluctuating thoughts and fleeting emotions constantly shifting your state of conciousness and being which is out of the norm.
-Receiving Spontaneous Vivid Vivid Visions and Visualisations.
- Incredibly strong urge to write Poems towards "The Woman I was seeing In My head" and write down my feelings and thoughts towards it. ( I Had no Idea this was called Channelling, or automatic writing at the time)
-The evolving feeling of something "living" inside "you" , and overwhelming you with a heavy energetic presence.
-Running Into RANDOM People that stop me in the street that tell me I have a Spirit around me.
-Friends, Family, And Love ones Around me getting attacked in they're dreams, and during the day time(Psychic Attacks)
-Come across a Person who happens to have spiritual gifts, and is able to verify and bring up everything to tell you whats going on, without solicitation or prompting of something spiritually wrong with me.
-Seeing Physical Objects Move, float, and break on it's own.

With this said... I know very few if at all is going to take my word for this. I'm some random person on the internet making spectacular claims, it's different reading an anecdote and experiencing it for yourself fully. I'll probably be nitpicked for every single variable, but I'm not grasping for straws, I have strong valid reasons to suspect the independence of the spirit worlds in correlation to human conciousness and the physical environment..

So with this said , I dont really care much for materialists that will say eveyrthing I experienced was "Imaginary" no matter how spectacular my claims are, because ultimately nothing will ever convince them. But I do get Irritated when I hear "New Agers" say, "She was a part of your mind, you created a thought form from your Belief System"

What came first the Chicken or the Egg? I suspect that Belief Systems can filter how an entity is perceived, since we have trouble perceiving them after all, they are invisible! But their is no mistaking a Spirit beings energy signature, and they are all unique, I cant accept that we "Create" these beings, after everything I been through, especially when other parties with no pre-conceived knowledge get involved...

I think finding a Real Medium Is the best way you can verify your spiritual experiences Especially when you have Multiple clairvoyants all share identical information.

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Are there spirits? In the model that I follow.. ..undoubtedly. If only because it is the main model that I have found success with, meaning that it is integral to my system that there is a belief of spirits present. Without that belief, or to be true to that system, without those spirits, I could not have found the successes in magick that I have.

So, are there spirits? Yes, there are... in the spirit model.

Edit: so, in summary, do I believe spirits exist? Oh, yes. Yes I do. Do I understand what a spirit truly is? In the same sense that I can understand what existing in a completely different dimension would be like... which.. I can't; it's too foreign, too alien..

I enjoy the philosophy of Animism myself. At the most honest level, this I can understand. Becuase of my life changing experiences, I dont claim to know if their is a "God", Or what happens after we die, or anything like that. But I do have beyond a shadow of a doubt, Certainty that their is is a non-physical realm close to us in vibration, and these beings can choose to be involved with us in some way, shape or form, in which they will have a variety of ways to grab our attention. Some ways more obvious then others. The veil is too thick i presume.. Hehe

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However - and this is the point I think a lot of people trip over, creating a lot of misunderstanding on this point - my experience of these things is all in my head. I can only be aware of them and reflect upon them because the experience is mediated by my consciousness. I can analyze my experience, and I can hypothesize over what may be occurring that my senses did not or cannot perceive - but all of this understanding happens in my mind.

This I understand, because of my intense experiences with my validations, I accept the model of "Plato's Theory of forms". Pretty much an abstract unseen influential force on mankind. We can pick up on it, but it is too subtle. I think the question we should all ask ourselves is "How Much is Independent?" I think these beings have they're own purposes for existing, but our brains are like computers, we can only sense the imprints and traces of they're energy's. (If your real good and trained at this)

If one wants to be certain, then attempt to validate your experiences.

But I do believe, they are honest and gifted people that devote they're lives into understanding the nature of these entity's, becuase they have no choice to.(Being able to see them and all.)

I have more thoughts on each and everyone's posts, but I wont write a wall of text for now. Thank you everyone for your intelligent & eloquent responses. =)

[Alice]

Please forgive if this post comes across as a little rude. I usually strive for diplomatic phrasing and tell people I think they're open minded when what I mean is they have a hole in their head. I'm really not in that mood today for some reason, and I don't censor myself.

Us primates are by and large very prone to arrogance. It's easy for us to fall into the mindset of it's all about us. Therefore, there is a large portion of the population who while they believe in the existence of spirits, are also inclined to believe that the purpose of the spirit world is to serve man. This is easiest to justify if the spirits have no independent existence and are instead projections of the human collective unconscious.

The fact that experiential evidence and the personal gnosis of the practitioners who can be proven by physical results to be the most gifted is against this theory... Is irrelevant to those who believe it. Another of the greatest human talents is self delusion. Anything which disproves our ludicrously arrogant opinions of our own importance is conveniently ignored.

The spells of people who believe spirits are self aware seem to have a higher success rate than those who treat them like thoughtforms, which explains why I see so much of the latter asking for advice from the former. But, again, this subtly is lost on people determined to believe in the theory of an anthrocentric cosmos (the universe revolves around man).

Don't get me wrong. I don't say for certain they have independent existence. I don't know. But the evidence leads to that conclusion, so I operate under that assumption until more evidence is revealed. Besides, as Caliban points out, it's just plain polite. How about hence forth I assume that I made you up until you can prove otherwise? Why is Uriel less likely to be real than Johnny Depp?

On a related note. To one who believes spirits come from their own mind: If I believe gravity is a construct of the collective unconscious, will this render me able to fly? No, probably not. Way too many people have died after jumping off a roof in a superman costume.

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I use the "actual spirit entity" model myself for practical reasons - it is easy and it is effective. But I know that the real state of affairs - being for the most part beyond my perceptions - is probably quite different than my mental image of it. That's okay.

This simple and undeniable fact is strong evidence in itself for the independent existence of spirits. If humans created them, someone would be able to fully understand them. No creator can make something more complex than themselves, and if anyone tries to tell me that the gods are less complex than humans, I'm not going to be able to leave that one alone, it's just too funny.

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It is enough to observe that when I act as though these things were conscious beings with intelligence, motives, etc. that I get results as though I had communicated with beings having intelligence, motives, etc. It could all be in my head, but I doubt it.

Like I said, if you did otherwise, the results would likely be less impressive. Thoughtforms rarely get offended when you call them thoughforms. Gods do.

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To what validations do you refer? What is clearly visible and measureable to some extent?

Have you ever been damned by a projection of the highest aspects of your own subconscious? I'm sure there's an argument to invalidate this point, but I'll make it anyway. To anyone who can't bend their own will to their own will, I'm very sorry, my thoughtforms do what I want them to do. No one can do that with a god. If spirits are all thoughtforms, they can be commanded by anyone with sufficient will power. I dare anyone to give a command to Lilith or Kali and see what happens. Of course, you might not be able to tell us how it went, but still...

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I tend to view things from an animistic perspective, one that says that if anything exists.. it somehow, tangibly or intangibly, has an affect on the world at large, however small or profound that may be (never underestimate the power held in the mite in the eye of an ant..). I also take into consideration that effects are lasting, in some shape or form. I have respect for that. It insinuates to me that even the smallest thing has power and have chosen to believe that if it has power, it has some decision on how that power is used -

Ebola virus. Enough said.

May you find what you seek,
Alice

Edited by Alice, 28 April 2012 - 11:05 PM.

[ChaosTech]

Sure the spirits are all inside your head....but your head is much larger than your body and linked to all others heads. Thus the mental plane or element of Air. To move further in this is to realize your inner vision or imagination is giant sized as well, and all our subconscious minds are part of a giant sea of consciousness called the collective unconscious. An even greater step is to perfectly see macrocosm and microcosm as one, and see all the aspects of the elements taking part in a sea of consciousness, where all is all, and all is one, and infinite. In my opinion this can be attained while having a body on the earth plane. Infinity or All is everywhere, and when enlightened to this, all the elements become balanced and one, although they remain as they are. When we stop trying to fix reality, we see it as holy, and so then we become holy. Holy lives, holy deaths, holy rebirths, it all just moving energy, wherever you are. Staying awake is seeing the flux and being it, becoming both the drop and the ocean, as they are the same thing. This is why the Taoists seem like a nature religion, as being one with the Tao is being one with all. All other religions only see where the source is, and label that the destination. True infinity spans all time, and exists prior and after it, simutaneously. Time is like the rungs on a circle of infinity, an artifical construct, we are under the power of if not held in proper place and mastered. In Infinity where does anything begin or end, nowhere, and everywhere, you are what you will to be, consciously or unconsciously. Magick is the power to move through infinity as what you will, instead of just blindly following this or that, with a foggy realization of where your going. Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law.

[Alice]

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Sure the spirits are all inside your head....but your head is much larger than your body and linked to all others heads. Thus the mental plane or element of Air. To move further in this is to realize your inner vision or imagination is giant sized as well, and all our subconscious minds are part of a giant sea of consciousness called the collective unconscious. An even greater step is to perfectly see macrocosm and microcosm as one, and see all the aspects of the elements taking part in a sea of consciousness, where all is all, and all is one, and infinite. In my opinion this can be attained while having a body on the earth plane. Infinity or All is everywhere, and when enlightened to this, all the elements become balanced and one, although they remain as they are. When we stop trying to fix reality, we see it as holy, and so then we become holy. Holy lives, holy deaths, holy rebirths, it all just moving energy, wherever you are. Staying awake is seeing the flux and being it, becoming both the drop and the ocean, as they are the same thing. This is why the Taoists seem like a nature religion, as being one with the Tao is being one with all. All other religions only see where the source is, and label that the destination. True infinity spans all time, and exists prior and after it, simutaneously. Time is like the rungs on a circle of infinity, an artifical construct, we are under the power of if not held in proper place and mastered. In Infinity where does anything begin or end, nowhere, and everywhere, you are what you will to be, consciously or unconsciously. Magick is the power to move through infinity as what you will, instead of just blindly following this or that, with a foggy realization of where your going. Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law.

While this is certainly an interesting premise, as far as I can tell it doesn't really have anything to do with the subject of the thread except that someone mentioned the collective unconscious previously. What exactly is your point, regarding the nature of spirits?

May you find what you seek,
Alice

[Killarican]

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Sure the spirits are all inside your head....but your head is much larger than your body and linked to all others heads.

I don't have a problem with the interpretation of "One Universal Conciousness", but with all due respect where do you draw the line between a thought form and a separate non-physical entity? People can create advanced servitors if they have the intention for it, crafting and molding "programming" them with the astral matter or..."Mind Stuff". But that's more like an AI.

Spirits and Entitys have their own feelings, thoughts, emotions, free will, and purposes for existing.

Will it still be "In your head" if other people can see and confirm the same spirits your seeing and interacting with? Is it still in your head if they have their information accurate 200% in bold detail?

If a medium were to connect with a passed loved one of yours, and was able to bring about information only you and the deceased individual would know, is that "In their head" too?

I'm sorry but these things are very possible, I seen it and experienced it with my own eyes.

Of course, please forgive me, if I took your whole post out of context. I just feel if people are going to have a campbellian view on the metaphysical, then they should be careful how they word things. We are dealing with the unseen after all, making a statement about the unseen can be interpreted dozens of different ways. If someone is going to say "its in your head", "you created it because you believed it" but then say "No no, ITS Real, Its just Only Real to YOU but nobody else!", I feel they might as well just say its Imaginary and end with it , rather then dance around the issue. That's just me though.

Edited by Killarican, 29 April 2012 - 01:44 AM.

[hunthell]

Alice really hit the nail on the head. I really can't add more to the logic behind her explanations.

In my own experience, when I'm with a group of people and we're all able to account for a spirit we saw/felt/sensed, and we all don't contradict ourselves in what it is, that leaves me to believe that spirits must exist.
Also, in my beliefs, the spiritual world is very real, and spirits can visit us whenever they want.

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

Alice, on 28 April 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Have you ever been damned by a projection of the highest aspects of your own subconscious? I'm sure there's an argument to invalidate this point, but I'll make it anyway. To anyone who can't bend their own will to their own will, I'm very sorry, my thoughtforms do what I want them to do. No one can do that with a god. If spirits are all thoughtforms, they can be commanded by anyone with sufficient will power. I dare anyone to give a command to Lilith or Kali and see what happens. Of course, you might not be able to tell us how it went, but still...

When people suggest anything approaching objective evidence of spirits, the scientist in me wants to know what evidence they're talking about. On a personal level, the only validation necessary is ones own experience, and in general if one has no sense of having created an experience, there's no good reason in my opinion to assume that they did.

That objective evidence remains ellusive, that two people can agree something remarkable happened at a given place and time but can describe the otherwise shared experience differently, etc... I don't think those things are meaningless, but what they means remains a mystery as near as I can tell.

[hunthell]

I guess another thing that people have to think about is how can you physically measure something that is not part of the physical world? There is no scientific process to do so, so another process must be made. However, I'm not smart enough to create a whole new system of measurement in a place that people can know only so little about.

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

hunthell, on 29 April 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

In my own experience, when I'm with a group of people and we're all able to account for a spirit we saw/felt/sensed, and we all don't contradict ourselves in what it is, that leaves me to believe that spirits must exist.

I would suggest trying something out in such cases. Instead of talking over a shared experience right away, have each individual present write down what they experienced first, then share what they wrote. Doing this sort of thing won't answer the main question about what causes spirit experiences, but it's still a useful thing to do.

[Killarican]

R. Eugene Laughlin, on 29 April 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

When people suggest anything approaching objective evidence of spirits, the scientist in me wants to know what evidence they're talking about. On a personal level, the only validation necessary is ones own experience, and in general if one has no sense of having created an experience, there's no good reason in my opinion to assume that they did.

That objective evidence remains ellusive, that two people can agree something remarkable happened at a given place and time but can describe the otherwise shared experience differently, etc... I don't think those things are meaningless, but what they means remains a mystery as near as I can tell.

I understand where you are coming from which is precisely my point. Spirits are Either, Real(As in they exist in they're own state of being as you and I), Or Imaginary(Literally existing within you).

I don't see too much room for grey, especially under certain circumstances which an experience can lead to either or. People can't say Spirits are "real" but really act like they are imagination. Thats why IMO Spirits should be treated as individuals, and thought forms as well..Thought forms... Irregardless of one's position. If one doesn't believe in spirits thats okay, but they are worlds apart from being thought forms in every single way. Mixing them together is spreading misinformation.

Edited by Killarican, 29 April 2012 - 02:49 AM.

[hunthell]

R. Eugene Laughlin, on 29 April 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

I would suggest trying something out in such cases. Instead of talking over a shared experience right away, have each individual present write down what they experienced first, then share what they wrote. Doing this sort of thing won't answer the main question about what causes spirit experiences, but it's still a useful thing to do.

Which is something I somewhat did. I don't have records of any of it though...(who knew that I might want to actually present them on he internet someday?) It was pretty cool. The only real difference is what sense depicted it (a couple saw it, a couple sensed it through emotion, one person [with lack of a better way to describe it] "6th sensed" it's energy). In some people, they perceived the entity with multiple senses - all of which were the same. The being didn't really have a body, but there was definitely an aura.

[Alice]

Well, I am of the feeling that the world is too complex to be an accident, and our very existence implies an intelligence capable creating us. If gods and spirits are manifestations of our own energy, how could they have created anything before we existed (including us)? If they didn't create the universe, it would mean all this is an accident, and I don't buy it. "Dear God, did you make us after we made you?"

May you find what you seek,
Alice

[Alice]

As for physical measurement and proof, we aren't so good at that with things that are physical. I'm the progeny of two cops, and if five people see the get away car, they'll describe six different vehicles. Your average vehicle involved in a crime is a station wagon/minvan/SUV that's blue/black/green/brown and had 2/3 people in it of four races. Our ability to measure something is unrelated to its objective nature.

May you find what you seek,
Alice

[aoz]

i get results. who cares if its reak or fictional. for me its more fun to see servitors as my astral demon children...

if its real its real...and if playing pretend helps with magick, well, pretend on!

[Alice]

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i get results. who cares if its reak or fictional. for me its more fun to see servitors as my astral demon children...

if its real its real...and if playing pretend helps with magick, well, pretend on!

The most important point made in this whole thread. Well said my friend.

May you find what you seek,
Alice