59 replies to this topic

[son of dhamma]

We, humans, and other sentient beings, create ourselves. We do it constantly and have always done, and will always continue to do it. Craving, ignorance, or you might would think that consciousness in general is responsible for creating us.

Reality, on the other hand, in an attempt to understand the nature of us and other sentient beings, creates Gods as the means to "deal with" or "understand" everything that we don't directly do. Reality brings them about because of us, but we certainly don't create them, and to say that they "create" us would simply be a way of interpreting reality's understanding or "dealing" with how we come to be. In some mythical contexts, it would be acceptable to say that Gods created us, but ultimately that is not the case. Reality can't exist separate from our sentience, and thus Gods emerge into the spiritual mind and spiritually influence the cosmos. If there were no humans, there'd be no need for Gods, therefore they would inexorably not exist. For this reason, it may be acceptable to say that humans "create" Gods. Certainly they do not directly and cannot directly do this.

Wind Turtle.

[Phantasmagoria]

Is there really a clear cut answer to that? What do you consider to be a god? Both could be true. I believe that the universe is in itself a thinking being, and that we are part of its vast, all encompassing thought process, as are all of the various gods that we call upon for support and power. The difference of course is that these beings are brought to life by the aspect of the universe that they encompass as well as the sentience of the universe, which is the same as the sentience in us and all other thinking beings.
So logically the question must be did the universe create us? Maybe. Maybe the act of our observation of these god-patterns brought them into existence. Maybe no one created anyone. Perhaps we just are. Perhaps all of this is true but from different points of view.

[son of dhamma]

Phantasmagoria, on 26 March 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

Is there really a clear cut answer to that? What do you consider to be a god? Both could be true. I believe that the universe is in itself a thinking being, and that we are part of its vast, all encompassing thought process, as are all of the various gods that we call upon for support and power. The difference of course is that these beings are brought to life by the aspect of the universe that they encompass as well as the sentience of the universe, which is the same as the sentience in us and all other thinking beings.
So logically the question must be did the universe create us? Maybe. Maybe the act of our observation of these god-patterns brought them into existence. Maybe no one created anyone. Perhaps we just are. Perhaps all of this is true but from different points of view.

You've just described the obvious meaning of everything. It really doesn't answer the question, and there is an answer. A question can't be a question without an answer.

[blackcoffee]

From nothingness came the universe.
That nothingness is obviously something.

What is nothingness?

I dont think any human could comprehend.
I have been trying in vain it seems.

[son of dhamma]

blackcoffee, on 26 July 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

From nothingness came the universe.
That nothingness is obviously something.

What is nothingness?

I dont think any human could comprehend.
I have been trying in vain it seems.

True, it is something that the universe comes from.

The origin of the universe is simply within us, with our perception. The origin of the universe is the meeting of consciousness, sensation and form, which in turn gives rise to our sensations, our perceptions, and our mental inclinations. Our mental inclinations and latent cravings lead to an object which when provided becomes the establishment for our consciousness. Furthermore, when it is established it gives rise to mind and form, and due to that there is again sense and sense-object, and its consciousness, and that contact arises our feeling, our perception, and the clinging resulting from that conditions our mental inclinations, thus what becomes within this universe, and what provides renewed establishment for consciousness... ... ... This gives rise again to mind and form.

This interdependent process is the origination of everything in the universe. This isn't "nothingness," it is somethingness. With the cessation of this process by craving, comes the cessation of the substance of the universe; the cessation of the elements, the cessation of consciousness. Without craving the consciousness becomes clear and endless, and no universal objects can further arise, once the five components of mental inclination-consciousness-sensation, perception and form disperse. Without craving to ignite mental inclination, there is no establishment of consciousness. This process is the "something," the elements of this process (24 in number) are its constituents.

What is the universe? It is Emptiness, it is Unsatisfactoriness, it is Impermanence. None of these qualities can come from nothingness. Nothingness is replaced by the process, which is upheld by the ultimate Principle of truth, the something comprehended only by the consciousness without feature, endless and luminous all around; altogether liberated from existence, and imperturbable.

So the last notion, that it is incomprehensible, is also misguided. For the something can be comprehended, resulting in the extinction of craving and unlimited eternal bliss.

[ChaosTech]

If everything is energy, that is moving, as only nothing stays static, and it's non-existant, where as infinity is static being or the movement as a whole itself, without anywhere to move to, than everything is in a constant state of flux, save infinity itself (which honestly can only be hinted at, as unbound properties, mean no limits to grasp and study), as it's more the "super flux." To understand a hint of infinity, nothingness, and all between, think of a wheel. When it's not moving it's nothing like, when it's moving it's like the various stages and planes between, which make up the cosmos, and when it's moving so fast the spokes and rim seem still, it's like infinity.

Sense everything is moving, even when aparently static, just moving very slow or very fast, depending upon what it is and where it is in the cosmos, can you really say there is ever such a thing as creation? Or destruction, or some inbeween process of both? No. The cosmos is movement, energy, vibration, there is no real solid things. Common sense of humans dont understand this, as they don't think as an enlightened mind does, which thinks to the root or extreme of everything, to show a much broader reality. People don't die, they just morph, but the untrained mind, just sees what his eyes see and doesn't understand what happens at death.

Few people understand life and death, and life beyond, as they do not think about it all enough. The human mind can be really great, it can understand anything, but as enlightened people use their whole brain as shown in EEG pictures, most of humanity doesn't. The result is a shallow understanding and so a shallow human society.

It's a lot of work to fathom the depths of reality starting as a child knowing little, but it can be done. Humanity probably needs gods and other commanding spirits to guide them, for the most part, whether they actually exist, or just exist in the mind of the believer, as few are willing to walk the path of continuing enlightenment.

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

ChaosTech, on 28 July 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

...The human mind can be really great, it can understand anything, but as enlightened people use their whole brain as shown in EEG pictures, most of humanity doesn't.

Please. Everyone uses their entire brain.

[ChaosTech]

But all at once?

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

All brain cells have a tonic level of activity. It's a physiological necessity. Cells that are dormant don't attract metabolic resources, and they die. True story. Specific brain cells change their state/activity in an action/experience-dependent manner (what most people mean when they talking about "using" their brain), but not all of them at once. We just don't work that way.

I apologize for sidetracking the thread though. I've said all I have to say on the matter.

[Mugami]

Black, 'the universe came from nothing... nothing is something'

...read some science every once in awhile. Not to be a dick.

Science and religion are two seperate things. The calculations have already been done regarding, and up to, the first moments after The Big Bang. And here's a little something for you: There was never a time nor place when/where there was "nothing". Before the big bang,...there was no before, not for this universe. There was no space, no vacuum of emptiness, no seconds nor minutes nor eons, not even nothing. From the first fraction of the very first nanosecond, the universe was always as full with matter and energy as it is now. It was just infinitely small. In that first fraction of a nanosecond, all that was and ever will be, in this universe, was packed into a space so small that a micron was several million times larger. There was no empty space outside that point. No empty universe. You couldn't stand back and watch it go boom. There was no space to stand in. If you were outside that point; you were not in our universe. As the bang expanded, time moved forward and space expanded. There is no "edge of space" where nothing exists beyond. The expansion only "spreads out" the energy and matter we have always had.

As to how the universe formed; well, many theories exist. The most likely is the "bubble/multiverse" model, which I will not even attempt to explain here, right now.

And as for the brain thing: if every cell in your brain was in a fully active state;
1.) You transmissions down one pathway would effect other transmissions in certain cases. As the impulses and chemical signals would saturate your brain and cause seizure, synaptic shock, and extreme pain as massive amounts of lactic acid are produced.

2.) The tranmission interruptions (and inadvertent misdirections) would cause abhorrent activity within the neurons themselves, up to and including, a cascade triggering of ATP from your mitochondria, who without th proper signals will dump all their ATP and then send out a depletion signal, but since your nucleus is overloaded on signals it will not be able to give the shut off signal or receive the depletion signal to begin with. All of a sudden, your cells need more than a hundred times the amount of oxygen to live and your lungs and heart pump so fast that your heart gives out. But that doesn't matter because your body couldn't have got enough for your brain anyways. Which brings me to...

3.) Your mitochondria, having lacked the oxygen, secrete the "suicide" signal. Since all your brain is quiet now, since your brain dead, this signal kills your brain cell, and the signal causes you to fully die. Of course, your heart already burst and you're internally hemorrhaging blood out of your paricardial sac into your chest cavity anyways. This is, of course, if number 4 doesn't kill you first.

4.) If your mitochondria accidentally begin to kick on one by one, all inside the same brain cells, to deal with the need your cell has to process the chemical signals and respond/relay them; if your brain no longer shutdown most of its neural network; your brain's temperature would skyrocket, and eventually generate so much heat as to violently combust. This would take less than a few seconds.

LOL. But it is a nice thought. If it wouldn't kill us. Being "enlightened" doesn't mean you use more of your brain all the time. Just that you use MORE PARTS of your brain and for different things. Some parts used are never normally used by a person, old bits and bobbles. Other parts and just used differently. Such as a part of your brain which though dedicated to REM sleep processes may become active during AP, Pre/Postcognition, and thought reading.

There is a lot of information on this stuff. The US government, for one, did thousands of tests and even had an "occult unit" for intel gathering during several wars. It is all mostly declassifed, can be read online, and requires no special access. Berkeley, Yale, and Harvard have also done yet more experiments on this and several other "occult topics". Mostly Yale.

Happy Hunting. They're great fun reads.

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

Mugami, on 04 August 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

LOL. But it is a nice thought. If it wouldn't kill us. Being "enlightened" doesn't mean you use more of your brain all the time. Just that you use MORE PARTS of your brain and for different things.

Interestingly, neuroimaging studies clearly show that the more experience a person has with a given function, the fewer neurons are needed to handle the job. It makes sense: the more effort one requires to accomplish something, the more neurons are called to action. Given that very generally pattern, I would expect enlightenment to bring increased efficiency at the neural level.

Edited by R. Eugene Laughlin, 04 August 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[Curtis Penfold]

Did God create the Universe, or did He BECOME the Universe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandeism

[son of dhamma]

TOLKA, on 23 September 2011 - 11:48 PM, said:

could you count this energy as an unconscious God?

great.

[Aunt Clair]

Iago, on 19 January 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

Perhaps we and the gods are locked in a constant cycle of creating each other.

Yes ! I believe that to be true. I am confident that humanity is not the only sentient creature and that some other universe supports life. I have seen alien spirits and Godhead from this world and from other worlds. Ascension is the pathway to become the angel and the avatar. The avatars reincarnate and become stronger still. We are created in the images of the Elohim and we become them...eventually.

The Gnostic Gospels teach that Barbello is the cosmic womb which created sentient light that could not become incarnate and strived to implant its consciousness in the animals of various planets and Earth was not the first planet to evolve sentient lifeforms.
I believe this too.

There is much to learn but answers are not all unattainable. For me the raison d'etre is to learn to love and forgive and we do this best through magick by recalling the lessons of previous lives, integrating the lessons of our trials and tribulations and the lessons from dreamstate and meditation in this life, and communicating our lessons with concurrent lives of our soul. We manifest for our future lives. This is the point of Mysticism , Hermetic Magick and Ascension Alchemy.

[Phantasmagoria]

My personal belief is that the gods have always existed as abstract forces of nature, formless in the void and without distinction. In the thoughts and feelings of thinking beings such as us humans however, they become more defined and personified. Apollo, for instance, is light, a formless universal concept, combined with music and beauty, two rather anthropogenic things. We made part of him, but not all of him. As to whether the gods were capable of their own volition or one could say sapient before man arose, I think so. I also believe that the universe is sentient and that our sentience is simply a subset of the All's great intelligence. The gods work, and have always worked, in similar ways. Then again, depending on how you look at it, the reality seems to change. Maybe there isn't one simple answer to this question.

[inah]

In my opinion, I think it depends on your concept of god or the gods. My current belief is based on Ain, Ain Sof, Ain Sof Aour, and Kether from the Qabalah. The universe started from nothinginess or Ain, which cannot be comprehended by us for now because we are something. Then to become conscious of itself it became Ain sof or infinity. Then it became Limtless light Ain Sof Aour then Kether and all manifestation including us. So based on that I assume that we all started from incomprehensible nothingness then conscious, and since we are a manifestation of that conscious and it is a part of us as well and since we all came from one point or as todays science calls it the big bang , then I believe that god or gods created us and we created him at the same time , we are all one thing creating and experiencing itself simultaneously. This my belief for now.

[r.s.mahanti]

What about the third possibility? We are the gods.

[TheCusp]

I really hate having to bring up Castaneda's name every time I want to reference something Don Juan said, but I agree with when he said the idea of God is just another object on the island of the tonal. Which I interpret as another randomly assembled archetype. And like any other archetype, it can be shaped into just about anything.

The way these archetypes are structured are not absolute, they can be shaped and changed. So will you accept the godly power of creating these structures yourself, or will you hand over this godly power to something you created using that very same power?

[Atridr]

Well, there are gods and there are Gods. For example, most pagan deities(and beings like Jesus or Buddha) are in my opinion lesser metaphysical beings than the transcendent Gods of such philosophies as christianity or hermeticism. Both certainly must exist in the same universe, but the aforementioned pagan gods are more like extremely powerful, wise and immortal magicians, while the transcendent Gods are more like faceless spiritual principles or mechanisms by which reality works than actual beings, in the sense that being requires some degree of separation from all. While pagan gods like Odin certainly are less separated from the reality than humans, they still possess some traits and attributes which can be called personal or arising from ego, while the transcendent Gods are basically just pure power that contains everything else within itself.

I don't claim to know how world was created, but my best guess is that the transcendent consciousness creates all within itself, and perhaps the various pagan deities created some parts of the manifest reality/world long time ago. Most likely during the mythical period of existence when spirit and matter were not yet separated from each other in the way they nowadays are.

[persona]

I believe that there is a force that goes beyond the gods, a force that both gives and is the manifestation of all life. It is, if you will, a super god, akin to the Christian God or, more accurately, Brahmin in Hindu. However, we humans pray to this divine entity for specific things, such as protection at sea or successful harvests. And, because of how we think, we represent each of these facets of this divine entity as separate entities, individual gods each with a specific role and domain. And, because large amounts of people accept these forms, those forms exist as we believe they do.

So the answer is yes. We are created by this divine entity but we, in turn, create the gods that are simply avatars of the divine, just as divine but more focused in their previews.