88 replies to this topic

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

ChaosTech said:

Sense there is a mental part to magick, I don't see why this debate still keeps going on. Doubt is of the mind, magick works through the mind, therefore doubt like any mental process, can interact/interfere with it.

I don't think it works that way.

Let me ask you though, do you think doubt is a choice? If you feel doubt can you stop feeling it by deciding not to feel it anymore?

[ChaosTech]

Yes, doubt is a choice, like all mentality and emotions. The consciousness is the great I which wears as a mask to identify, the many mes. Consciousness has both will and perception as one. It can choose and be effected by any thought, emotion, or even sensation.

[z0b]

Yes Eugene it is a choice I control my mind when I chose to even the automated functions of this vessel anymore though I don't suggest anyone do so .Learning how this vessel works is important in magik focus , will power and visulisation all very important yes .So why be bothered with a common feeling if you don't choose too be huh?

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

I generally agree that one need not succomb to doubt to the point of inaction. But I think the issue is much more complex than either of you assume.

To really give the topic the thought it deseves, consider when and how doubts come up in the first place. Initially and most commonly, there would be a plan of action in place, something one is going to do, and some time between setting the plan and carrying it out, wherein thoughts and feelings about the plan have a chance to churn a bit. Then, doubt, if it occurs, is never planned or anticipated. It just crops up, unexpectedly, seemingly out of nowehere, and for that moment at least, one can do nother but experience it. The salient question at this point, for me, is this: does the doubt have the power to alter the plan or otherwise impair the performance of the planned act(s)?

Given that question, which is a case by case issue, what I'm interested in now is when and why the answer is yes, and when and why the answer is no?

[Jody Houtman]

Even Crowley stated that is was amazing to see things manifest that he felt unsure if it would work. Everybody wonders, "Will this work?" As long as your doubt is not a product of fear, & your preprations are correct, no issue should arise. To be honest, I feel a little silly during Medatation somtimes. While I am trying to expand my grasp on true reality, I am still Human. Be well, & dont forget to error is Human, to laugh at that error is Divine

[z0b]

Putting it that way it might have something to do with how the different layers of the mind sync up.Like maybe the lower self is happy your doing let's say the act whatever it maybe be and the middle self thinks its good but then your higher self is like but down the road this might not be so good for us or any of those combinations would cause the feeling of doubt in a person.Now weather it would be enough too make the act not work or make it less effective or not or just be putting in its opposition too it like putting in its two cents well that would depend on alot of factors about the person doing the act .Ive noticed when I have all three mind,body and spirit all working on the same page everything I do works there's no thought it wouldn't doubt does not come into question.But when one of those 3 has what I call a hissy fit it's a coin toss weather it will work,fail or do something unexpected .This only happens when those factors don't sync up on somthing

[Jeremiah Fuglseth]

R. Eugene Laughlin said:

Here are a couple of questions that occur to me at this point. Suppose your right about that; what can be done about it? And then, suppose you're wrong about that; might that faulty idea lead to unnecessary behavior? Maybe even detrimental behavior?

Discipline of my thinking process to analyze what circuit I am functioning on would be an appropriate tactic, I believe. If I am wrong, what can I do ever except attempt to reason new courses from seeing the link between circumstance and a priori?

[Jeremiah Fuglseth]

R. Eugene Laughlin said:

I generally agree that one need not succomb to doubt to the point of inaction. But I think the issue is much more complex than either of you assume.

To really give the topic the thought it deseves, consider when and how doubts come up in the first place. Initially and most commonly, there would be a plan of action in place, something one is going to do, and some time between setting the plan and carrying it out, wherein thoughts and feelings about the plan have a chance to churn a bit. Then, doubt, if it occurs, is never planned or anticipated. It just crops up, unexpectedly, seemingly out of nowehere, and for that moment at least, one can do nother but experience it. The salient question at this point, for me, is this: does the doubt have the power to alter the plan or otherwise impair the performance of the planned act(s)?

Given that question, which is a case by case issue, what I'm interested in now is when and why the answer is yes, and when and why the answer is no?

I would have to examine my thinking to find the source of the doubt to answer that. I believe the doubt does not spring out of nowhere. I believe it is attached to a prior experience that shares similarity with the circumstance it is being felt in.

[Jeremiah Fuglseth]

R. Eugene Laughlin said:

I generally agree that one need not succomb to doubt to the point of inaction. But I think the issue is much more complex than either of you assume.

To really give the topic the thought it deseves, consider when and how doubts come up in the first place. Initially and most commonly, there would be a plan of action in place, something one is going to do, and some time between setting the plan and carrying it out, wherein thoughts and feelings about the plan have a chance to churn a bit. Then, doubt, if it occurs, is never planned or anticipated. It just crops up, unexpectedly, seemingly out of nowehere, and for that moment at least, one can do nother but experience it. The salient question at this point, for me, is this: does the doubt have the power to alter the plan or otherwise impair the performance of the planned act(s)?

Given that question, which is a case by case issue, what I'm interested in now is when and why the answer is yes, and when and why the answer is no?

I would have to examine my thinking to find the source of the doubt to answer that. I believe the doubt does not spring out of nowhere. I believe it is attached to a prior experience that shares similarity with the circumstance it is being felt in.

[Jeremiah Fuglseth]

You know what we are like? We are like the tachikomas in ghost
in the shell.

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

Jeremiah Fuglseth said:

I would have to examine my thinking to find the source of the doubt to answer that. I believe the doubt does not spring out of nowhere. I believe it is attached to a prior experience that shares similarity with the circumstance it is being felt in.

I agree that doubt doesn't spring from nowhere. As you say, it's a response based on past experience, which includes an inference about current/upcoming events. A technical definition of doubt could be that such an inference is decidedly negative, or shall we say, pessimistic about the outcome of the current/upcoming event. To put a face on it, let's say that someone promised they will do X, but you doubt it. That essentially means that you have inferred the promise is unlikely to be honored, based on what you know about the person and/or what you know about what the person has promised. Or, if you take action Y to achieve outcome X but you doubt it, that means that you have inferred outcome X an unlikely outcome of action Y for any number of reasons.

I want to point out that the initial experience of doubt is a feeling, not a conscious thought. The conscious thoughts that get labeled, doubt, are in fact what one ends up thinking about the feeling. So, the inferential process involved is automatic and implicit (implied by the feeling and subsequent thoughts), and is not a direct result of a conscious deliberation process. The subsequent deliberation that occurs usually takes place around what to do given the doubt one is currently experiencing, and in some cases includes conscious analysis to better understand the source of the doubt.

That's why doubt itself is not a choice. We may be able to control how we respond, after some deliberation and analysis, whether we act or not once doubt has occurred, etc. But there's no way to anticipate what will trigger the implicit inferential process that results in doubt, so that "it" can be avoided; and really, even if we could, I think it would maladaptive to do ever so, if you catch my drift. And then, once the inferential process occurs, there's no way to stop the feeling, and once the feeling occurs there's no way to stop the subsequent thoughts, which together generate the experience of doubt.

I've also given some thought to when one is likely to act despite the doubt and when one is not likely to act, but I'll take that up sometime later.

[arjil]

I wonder if it depends on what Type of magick you're using, or the method you utilize to go about it?
In my own experience doubt plays heavily, but typicly all I'm using is some will, imagination, and my own... spirit/power/shine/echo/whatever to throw it on the spot. It's chiefly all internal-mental-spirit stuff, as far as the method and tools employed go, so the state of my mind and my thought, it seems, would be paramount in my success or failure.

In ritual work with tools and constructs, perhaps your thought is Anchored, and youve Done the thing as far as reality is concerned so once you've placed it/ lit it/ poured it/ cut it/ whatever, the powers and energies utilized are typicly of the elements or universal forces beyond your own, and thus the effect remains, giving it... insulation against doubt perhaps? And in more common rituals, there is the echo of belief that this thing works by all those who have done it before.

In the case of utilizing intercessional Deities and spirits, it is they, not you who move reality, so long as you say your right words, make the proper sacrifices and observe the forms, and they heeded your desire and carry it out, it doesn't matter what you believe or if you doubt it- they handle it.

I'm just wondering how big of a role the way we go about magick plays in this debate.

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

arjil said:

In my own experience doubt plays heavily, but typicly all I'm using is some will, imagination, and my own... spirit/power/shine/echo/whatever to throw it on the spot. It's chiefly all internal-mental-spirit stuff, as far as the method and tools employed go, so the state of my mind and my thought, it seems, would be paramount in my success or failure.

What effect do you think doubt has on the whatever it is you're doing that you call magick?

[son of dhamma]

R. Eugene Laughlin said:

If one performs a magical act but doubts it will work, does the doubt undo the magick? Assuming all else was done properly, would the magick have "worked" were it not for the doubts?

I've read through some of the responses, and the problem is the nature of the doubt isn't specified at all.
It isn't simply "doubt" that undoes magyk. It is the belief that is does not work, that it cannot be there, that strains against the magyk, pulling the threads of it apart like undoing the threads of a shimmering blanket. It is a fundamental doubt, perhaps, that may cause unbelief, but it is unbelieving that undoes magyk. However, the magyk has to be tied to you somehow. You can be the most unbelieving person in the world, but if the magyk at work isn't tied to you in some way, you cannot pull apart its weaving with your own disbelief. This is obviously distinct from undoing magyk willingly by the intervention of a mage, or a yookpeh.
Hoping to be useful,
Wind Turtle.

[arjil]

R. Eugene Laughlin said:

What effect do you think doubt has on the whatever it is you're doing that you call magick?

Well, if I get hit with doubt When I'm in the midst of shaping my intent it's a distraction from the spell I'm throwing and makes the *power* sluggish, hard to see in my mind, and to control. If I lose my zen and it gets to me and I lend it weight in my mind it taints the resonance and lessens, skewes, or destroys the effect.
Similarly, if it gets to me After I've thrown a spell, it can echo in reality just as hard as my Will and I can wind up effectively counterspelling myself before my Will is brought to fruition.
Though sometimes in the latter case I'm pretty sure I just Know it didn't take rather than the counterspell effect.
There's always a level of uncertainty in shaping reality, but I've found that not knowing if, or wondering whether it will work, is a different matter from Doubting it will work- At least in the ways of throwing made up magick on the fly, without any sort of tools, scripts, symbols, or external power source.
Granted, I deal with magick rather differently than most of the occult community, so my experience may not necessesarily apply to the more traditional methods.
Having internalized the process of magick to the point where I must be mindful Not to screw with prevailing reality, and having a relationship to Magick that is somewhat like The Force + Quantum Reality in how I view and interact with it, it would seem that the impetus of my success or failure is chiefly dependent on my mental/spiritual state and control (reality inertia notwithstanding). Thus, doubt is a stumbling block I must be mindful of.
At least, that's how it currently seems to work for me.

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

arjil said:

Well, if I get hit with doubt When I'm in the midst of shaping my intent it's a distraction from the spell I'm throwing and makes the *power* sluggish, hard to see in my mind, and to control. If I lose my zen and it gets to me and I lend it weight in my mind it taints the resonance and lessens, skewes, or destroys the effect.

From what you said I assume you're basically doing creative visualization. If you don't think that's an apt description of what you do, feel free to elaborate on what you actually do. Whether or not creative visualization per se qualifies as "magick" is debatable, but that aside...

Given that kind of technique, I would imagine that any extraneous thought that draws ones attention away from the target of the operation would interfere with the process; I wouldn't see that as a doubt-specific thing.

arjil said:

Similarly, if it gets to me After I've thrown a spell, it can echo in reality just as hard as my Will and I can wind up effectively counterspelling myself before my Will is brought to fruition.

I think most anyone would agree that a generally pessimistic attitude toward a desired goal tends to be counterproductive. There seems to be a fairly straight-up psychology to that, self-fulfilling prophecy, etc., the reverse of which is, of course, the basic idea behind creative visualization, the power of positive thought as it were, which some would argue was introduced to the Western vernacular in late 1930's by Napolean Hill in Think and Grow Rich.

arjil said:

Though sometimes in the latter case I'm pretty sure I just Know it didn't take rather than the counterspell effect.
There's always a level of uncertainty in shaping reality, but I've found that not knowing if, or wondering whether it will work, is a different matter from Doubting it will work- At least in the ways of throwing made up magick on the fly, without any sort of tools, scripts, symbols, or external power source.
Granted, I deal with magick rather differently than most of the occult community, so my experience may not necessesarily apply to the more traditional methods.
Having internalized the process of magick to the point where I must be mindful Not to screw with prevailing reality, and having a relationship to Magick that is somewhat like The Force + Quantum Reality in how I view and interact with it, it would seem that the impetus of my success or failure is chiefly dependent on my mental/spiritual state and control (reality inertia notwithstanding). Thus, doubt is a stumbling block I must be mindful of.
At least, that's how it currently seems to work for me.

Do you think doubt is a choice? That is, can you prevent doubt from entering your mind if you want to?

Edited by Caliban, 31 August 2011 - 01:34 AM.
teeny tiny typo

[arjil]

R. Eugene Laughlin said:

From what you said I assume you're basically doing creative visualization. If you don't think that's an apt description of what you do, feel free to elaborate on what you actually do. Whether or not creative visualization per se qualifies as "magick" is debatable, but that aside...

Not exactly. The technique is similar, but whereas they use basicly a daydream to program their mind into a particular state for future action (and what they're doing wouldn't qualify as magick in my book unless they managed to empower it to bend reality either by creating the circumstance they envision or moving well beyond their usual physical limits in a particular situation)
I use it to gather, shape, and throw my magick on the spot. It's more like the visiualization people use for shielding- you know, imagine a bright light all around you etc? I see and feel my power going out into the world to influence objects, people, situations, chunks of reality, and empower myself in various ways. I don't much focus on the end results- I typicly let the magick find the path of least resistance to my desired end (there's a whole discussion there about unintended means of manifestation- but I've found if you only use your own power, rather than outside forces, it typicly won't do anything you'd find aborrent- might be a bit of a pain in the ass, but it won't drop a truck on your grandmother to get you some cash. well, unless you're that sort of person anyway)

R. Eugene Laughlin said:

Given that kind of technique, I would imagine that any extraneous thought that draws ones attention away from the target of the operation would interfere with the process; I wouldn't see that as a doubt-specific thing.

It does indeed, but doubt is centered on what you're doing. It runs Counter to whatever you're attemting to manifest, whereas monkey-mind chitter is merely distracting.

R. Eugene Laughlin said:

I think most anyone would agree that a generally pessimistic attitude toward a desired goal tends to be counterproductive. There seems to be a fairly straight-up psychology to that, self-fulfilling prophecy, etc., the reverse of which is, of course, the basic idea behind creative visualization, the power of positive thought as it were, which some would argue was introduced to the Western vernacular in late 1930's by Napolean Hill in Think and Grow Rich.

True. Though most people don't take into account how far such pessimism can echo beyond our own heads, and how much influence on reality at large it can have.

R. Eugene Laughlin said:

Do you think doubt is a choice? That is, can you prevent doubt from entering your mind if you want to?

That's a toughy. I know it's mostly a choice as to whether you give in to and empower it. With training and practice come the confidence to banish doubt altogether, but as tricky a business as magick is, it is rare for me to be able to throw something with 100 percent confidence that it's going to work. So honestly, I don't know. All I seem to be able to do is keep hold of it and not let it muck things up most of the time. Though it has lessened considerably over the years as I get better at influencing reality.

[MagiAwen]

R. Eugene Laughlin said:

If one performs a magical act but doubts it will work, does the doubt undo the magick? Assuming all else was done properly, would the magick have "worked" were it not for the doubts?

Doubt doesn't "undo" the magic, though makes it so one never touches it. In my opinion. If it is the true will of the magician, to complete an operation and have it end in a result, it will. There is a difference between want/desire/wish/gimme and true will. Doubt (again in my opinion) stems from lack of confidence first in the magician. It may be overlayed or projected onto something else, but what we think and how we feel about things comes from within us. Doubt to me is a negative emotion, negative emotions are based on fear. Some people have a subconscious fear of success usually based on a subconscious fear of not being enough or not worthy.

If you doubt you will succeed in school, no matter how you study, (in most cases) you will undermine yourself by not letting yourself be open to being successful and good or good enough. The mystery in magic does not lie in some obscure passage in some long lost ancient magic tome, it's right inside you and everything you are affects it.

Regarding whether or not doubt is a choice. In my opinion, regarding all emotions whether consciously or not are choices. Though it's not as simple as saying "okay I believe everything and have confidence in this stuff now"...it's a choice through experience and the way we view ourselves, the world, and our position (or lack of position) within it.

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

MagiAwen said:

Doubt doesn't "undo" the magic, though makes it so one never touches it. In my opinion. If it is the true will of the magician, to complete an operation and have it end in a result, it will. There is a difference between want/desire/wish/gimme and true will. Doubt (again in my opinion) stems from lack of confidence first in the magician. It may be overlayed or projected onto something else, but what we think and how we feel about things comes from within us. Doubt to me is a negative emotion, negative emotions are based on fear. Some people have a subconscious fear of success usually based on a subconscious fear of not being enough or not worthy.

If you doubt you will succeed in school, no matter how you study, (in most cases) you will undermine yourself by not letting yourself be open to being successful and good or good enough. The mystery in magic does not lie in some obscure passage in some long lost ancient magic tome, it's right inside you and everything you are affects it.

If I'm reading you right then, you think that doubt is a symptom of a more deep-seated problem, not the problem itself.

MagiAwen said:

Regarding whether or not doubt is a choice. In my opinion, regarding all emotions whether consciously or not are choices.

How does one make a non-conscious choice?

[MagiAwen]

R. Eugene Laughlin said:

If I'm reading you right then, you think that doubt is a symptom of a more deep-seated problem, not the problem itself.

Pretty much.

R. Eugene Laughlin said:

How does one make a non-conscious choice?

Much easier to answer this with someone else's work:

"Most of what do goes on unconsciously. It is the exception, not the rule, when thinking is conscious, but by its very nature [i.e., because we cannot experience anything else], conscious thought seems the only sort. It is not the only sort; it is the minority." (Lachman, Lachman, & Butterfield, 1979, p. 207)

"The results demonstrate that our mind works like a "multi-tasking computer" that can do more than one thing at a time. Conscious mind is only one task. Compared to our nonconscious mind, our conscious mind is relatively limited. While we "watch and consciously experience" only a small part of what is potentially available to us in the outside world, our nonconscious mind is busy processing large amounts of information which is too hidden, too abundant, and/or too complex to be identified by our consciousness. As compared to our ability to acquire information nonconsciously, our conscious mind is incomparably slower; it is also "clumsier," less perceptive, and less capable of detecting complex patterns of information. One can say that our nonconsciousness is "smarter."" -
http://www.personal....cki/simple.html


Researchers at Columbia University Medical Center have found that fleeting images of fearful faces - images that appear and disappear so quickly that they escape conscious awareness - produce unconscious anxiety that can be detected in the brain with the latest neuroimaging machines.
http://www.medicalne...eases/18022.php

http://www.focusing....pers/Ellis.html