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Poke Runyon


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#41 TOLKA

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 06:10 PM

Paradigm bashing or opinion? I think that when we are questioning a writer as Poke's methodology and work the very thing that we are questioning is his paradigm. The topic only had one course...

Anyway I think that we have an overal opinion that Poke has altered too much, whether from the Traditional Grimiores or from the Golden Dawn rites.
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#42 Poimandres

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 07:12 PM

A good read along the lines of this discussion:

http://aaronleitch.w...fundamentalist/

...just some food for thought.

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#43 alwayson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:34 PM

Poimandres said:

A good read along the lines of this discussion:

http://aaronleitch.w...fundamentalist/

...just some food for thought.



I was going to paste the same link.

This goes right to the heart of the matter.

#44 AEternitas

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:54 PM

The Lesser Key of Solomon is a made up 17th century thing, for sure, the Ars Goetia itself is a compilationo of components taken from Weyer, The Heptameron, and Agrippa, it is also a VERY Christian grimoire.
To state that the only route to success with the book is by following it to the letter is uninformed fundamentalism, and is only true for someone that 1) doesn't understand the history of the book and occult literature in general and 2) doesn't understand occult and magical principles. Now this is nothing against the grimoire purist who 1) understands occult and magical literature and 2) understands occult and magical principles and knows what is essential and necessary and what what can be changed and why.
I would be interested in reading about why you think the Golden Dawn is flawed, and you should start another thread about it.

#45 alwayson

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 11:14 PM

AEternitas said:

The Lesser Key of Solomon is a made up 17th century thing, for sure, the Ars Goetia itself is a compilationo of components taken from Weyer, The Heptameron, and Agrippa, it is also a VERY Christian grimoire.

This is simply not correct. Aaron Leitch says it is much older than the 1600's. Lesser Key is actually a compilation of more than one grimoire, so yes there are christian grimoires in it. And the rest of it, you just pulled from your imagination.

AEternitas said:

I would be interested in reading about why you think the Golden Dawn is flawed, and you should start another thread about it.

I'll just give you the obvious one. The way the Golden Dawn incorporated Enochian magick into its rituals is laughable. Thats why they say if you want to learn enochian magick stay clear of Golden Dawn material. Golden Dawn is just a a laughably bastardized verision of kabbalah and enochian.

#46 AEternitas

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 12:40 AM

alwayson said:

This is simply not correct. Aaron Leitch says it is much older than the 1600's. Lesser Key is actually a compilation of more than one grimoire, so yes there are christian grimoires in it. And the rest of it, you just pulled from your imagination.

I'll just give you the obvious one. The way the Golden Dawn incorporated Enochian magick into its rituals is laughable. Thats why they say if you want to learn enochian magick stay clear of Golden Dawn material. Golden Dawn is just a a laughably bastardized verision of kabbalah and enochian.

I'm sorry? Pulled from my imagination? The list of spirits from the Ars Goetia comes from Weyer's Pseudomonarchia Daemonum, from 1563. In fact, one could say that the Ars Goetia was an attempt to reconstruct this very system.
The conjurations from the Ars Goetia are derived from the Heptameron, and so is the Hexagram of Solomon
http://www.esoterica...on/heptamer.htm
The Names that are drawn on the circle and on the Lion skin belt are derived from Agrippa's scale of ten.
http://www.esoterica...pa/agripp2b.htm

As for the other books of the Lesser Key, I'am not so familiar with their history, and I've never had much use for them myself, though I find them interesting.
WHat is commonly mistaken for "Golden Dawn Enochian" is actually a syncretic system that has as it's foundation one particular portion of the Enochian system and combines all of the Golden Dawn's teachings and techniques into one very dynamic system and that is why it has been called "the crown and jewel of the Goolden Dawn system." And it works rather well for those who use it, although it CLEARLY is not the original Enochian system.
What you call a "bastardized" version of the "kabbalah" (which is btw, the spelling generally used for the christian system of Qabalah) is largley drawn, again, from Agrippa among other sources and is spelled Qabalah.
"Thats why they say if you want to learn enochian magick stay clear of Golden Dawn material." Who may I ask are "they?"
It is clear to me that you come from a position of rather limited knowledge and are in fact the very type of individual that Lietch is referring to as a "grimoire fundamentalist."
All this brings me back to the original topic of the thread. Runyon, for all his faults, has seemingly developed a system that works for him and it is no less valid or credible than any other system or grimooire.

#47 TOLKA

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 12:55 AM

AEternitas said:

I'm sorry? Pulled from my imagination? The list of spirits from the Ars Goetia comes from Weyer's Pseudomonarchia Daemonum, from 1563. In fact, one could say that the Ars Goetia was an attempt to reconstruct this very system.
The conjurations from the Ars Goetia are derived from the Heptameron, and so is the Hexagram of Solomon
http://www.esoterica...on/heptamer.htm
The Names that are drawn on the circle and on the Lion skin belt are derived from Agrippa's scale of ten.
http://www.esoterica...pa/agripp2b.htm

I agree though I was not aware of the Lion Skn belt reference to Agrippa's scale of ten??? There are also links to the numerology linked with the planets in the names of god themselves central circle were the 3 names given value 6 to give 666 used with the title of God (not name) El. The names and numbers are of the Moon, Saturn and the Sun. This can be found in Agrippa in the section that Barret ripped off.

AEternitas said:

What you call a "bastardized" version of the "kabbalah" (which is btw, the spelling generally used for the christian system of Qabalah) is largley drawn, again, from Agrippa among other sources and is spelled Qabalah.

The Christians don't follow the Kabalah, the Jews do, and not all of them even follow it.

AEternitas said:

All this brings me back to the original topic of the thread. Runyon, for all his faults, has seemingly developed a system that works for him and it is no less valid or credible than any other system or grimooire.

If it works.

For someone who has a system out there pushed over the internet, its strange how no one has come foward and said, 'hey I've tried Poke's system and it's brilliant.'
That's what makes me think that it's crap. And the fact his opinions don't strike me as someone who has really summoned anything. Which unfortunately are 95% of people who say that they have.
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#48 alwayson

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 12:55 AM

AEternitas said:

I'm sorry? Pulled from my imagination? The list of spirits from the Ars Goetia comes from Weyer's Pseudomonarchia Daemonum, from 1563. In fact, one could say that the Ars Goetia was an attempt to reconstruct this very system.
The conjurations from the Ars Goetia are derived from the Heptameron, and so is the Hexagram of Solomon
http://www.esoterica...on/heptamer.htm
The Names that are drawn on the circle and on the Lion skin belt are derived from Agrippa's scale of ten.
http://www.esoterica...pa/agripp2b.htm

As for the other books of the Lesser Key, I'am not so familiar with their history, and I've never had much use for them myself, though I find them interesting.
WHat is commonly mistaken for "Golden Dawn Enochian" is actually a syncretic system that has as it's foundation one particular portion of the Enochian system and combines all of the Golden Dawn's teachings and techniques into one very dynamic system and that is why it has been called "the crown and jewel of the Goolden Dawn system." And it works rather well for those who use it, although it CLEARLY is not the original Enochian system.
What you call a "bastardized" version of the "kabbalah" (which is btw, the spelling generally used for the christian system of Qabalah) is largley drawn, again, from Agrippa among other sources and is spelled Qabalah.
"Thats why they say if you want to learn enochian magick stay clear of Golden Dawn material." Who may I ask are "they?"
It is clear to me that you come from a position of rather limited knowledge and are in fact the very type of individual that Lietch is referring to as a "grimoire fundamentalist."
All this brings me back to the original topic of the thread. Runyon, for all his faults, has seemingly developed a system that works for him and it is no less valid or credible than any other system or grimooire.


Wow so many errors...its as much as a joke as Golden Dawn's enochian magick. I have a masters in history, but I am not going get started.

But you do concede that Golden Dawn enochian magick is crap. Thats all that matters.

#49 AEternitas

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:04 AM

TOLKA said:

I agree though I was not aware of the Lion Skn belt reference to Agrippa's scale of ten??? There are also links to the numerology linked with the planets in the names of god themselves central circle were the 3 names given value 6 to give 666 used with the title of God (not name) El. The names and numbers are of the Moon, Saturn and the Sun. This can be found in Agrippa in the section that Barret ripped off.



The Christians don't follow the Kabalah, the Jews do, and not all of them even follow it.



If it works.

For someone who has a system out there pushed over the internet, its strange how no one has come foward and said, 'hey I've tried Poke's system and it's brilliant.'
That's what makes me think that it's crap. And the fact his opinions don't strike me as someone who has really summoned anything. Which unfortunately are 95% of people who say that they have.

Not the lion skin belt itself, but the names on it.

I have come across Christian systems of Kabbalah, spelled in that manner.

I agree, if it woorks. I have not heard of anyone who has used his system and said it works except Runyon himself. Whatever he is getting from it, it must be giving him what he needs and or expects from it.

#50 AEternitas

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:15 AM

alwayson said:

Wow so many errors...its as much as a joke as Golden Dawn's enochian magick. I have a masters in history, but I am not going get started.

But you do concede that Golden Dawn enochian magick is crap. Thats all that matters.

What errors?

What internal textual nuances are there that suggest that the Ars Goetia predates Weyer, Agrippa or the Heptameron? I don't think it is very likely that the Ars Goetia is any older than the 1600's.

I did not "concede" that the GD system is not Enochian magic in it's original format, and it would only take a cursory examination to come to that obvious conclusion.

#51 Morrigan

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:19 AM

AEternitas said:

It is clear to me that you come from a position of rather limited knowledge and are in fact the very type of individual that Lietch is referring to as a "grimoire fundamentalist."
All this brings me back to the original topic of the thread. Runyon, for all his faults, has seemingly developed a system that works for him and it is no less valid or credible than any other system or grimooire.

This is a rehash of thread he started over a year ago. The general argument made in both post is: "I'm right. Golden Dawn and the British are stupid."
http://www.occultcor...n-Dawn-Magician

#52 TOLKA

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:23 AM

AEternitas said:

Not the lion skin belt itself, but the names on it.

You mean the Semiforas. Its in a lot of grimoires which predate Agrippa too. The Liber Juratus and the Sepher Raziel both have it.

AEternitas said:

I have come across Christian systems of Kabbalah, spelled in that manner.

That makes no sense as it is not the christian view, but I suppose there may have been someone wh tried to tie the two together at some part considering Christianities origin in Judaism.

AEternitas said:

I agree, if it woorks. I have not heard of anyone who has used his system and said it works except Runyon himself. Whatever he is getting from it, it must be giving him what he needs and or expects from it.

Now that's where it becomes dangerous. As Imperial Arts said early who has benefited better than the spirits. Sometimes a spirit will pretend to be under your control so that you spread the method and it can fuck with peoples lives who evoke it without proper protection. The person who puts out the method may have continued success without any knowledge he is being used to draw in victims.

The Traditional Grimoires have a certain amount of credit to them as many people including myself have practiced them to success as they were originally.
I think that things can be altered once you start talking to the spirits that you have traditionally summoned, but Poke's form I am not one for.
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#53 AEternitas

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:24 AM

alwayson said:

Wow so many errors...its as much as a joke as Golden Dawn's enochian magick. I have a masters in history, but I am not going get started.

But you do concede that Golden Dawn enochian magick is crap. Thats all that matters.

I certainly did not concede that the Golden Dawn system is crap. You keep editing your post. originally you said that according to Aaron Lietch the Lesser Key predates Weyer, Agrippa and even the Heptameron, and that their was internal textual evidence to support this.
Then you said that I was wrong about the spelling of Kabbalah and that I should research it and come back and admit that I was wrong. I will admit that the spelling is generally one of personal style and I have come to know the spelling cabalah or kabbalah as the christian spelling, whereas Qabalah is that generally associated with Hermetics.
You keep editing your post again and again. Sir I do believe you are trolling.

#54 Poimandres

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:25 AM

I believe we are arguing a point that can never be resolved...the exact date of the Lesser Key is nearly impossible to point down, at best we can say 1600 +/- 200 years. It very clearly draws from earlier principles, but it is highly unlikely that this Grimoire as a complete system was developed any earlier. One thing that is certain is that the Lesser Key and the Goetia are by no means "broken" systems that need reworking to function - which is Poke's pivotal argument.

As to the C/Q/Kabbalah and GD .... I have to state that the GD's Qabalah is not derived from Agrippa. Agrippa's system is much closer to the traditional Jewish Kabbalah and we find a very clear Sefer Yetzirah influence in it. We see this very clearly in the importance placed on the 3:7:12 division of the alphabet (something entirely lost in the GD Tree Diagrams), and also in the planetary attributions to the letters. The GD uses an Alef-Moon system while Agrippa and the majority of Jewish commentaries on the Sefer Yetzirah put forth a Saturn-Alef system.

Anyway, this thread has been thoroughly derailed...bottom line on which we all seem to agree is that Poke's system is a far cry from the original Grimoire. I, for one, firmly believe that his "spirit worship" is a veritable perversion of the philosophic principles of the Grimoire tradition and leads to a dangerous inversion of the hierarchical system which was intended to place the Magician -as the conduit for God's authority - at the apex of the spiritual kingdom.

Edited by Poimandres, 25 January 2011 - 01:33 AM.
Changing Aleph to Alef...thinking Greek :P

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#55 alwayson

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:29 AM

I am going to defend Poke a little bit. I know its a shocker. But when he created his system back in the 70's or something like that he didn't have the correct version by Joseph Peterson.

I believe all they had back then were biased Golden Dawn versions.

Poimandres said:

bottom line on which we all seem to agree is that Poke's system is a far cry from the original Grimoire.

Amen.

#56 AEternitas

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:30 AM

TOLKA said:

You mean the Semiforas. Its in a lot of grimoires which predate Agrippa too. The Liber Juratus and the Sepher Raziel both have it.
That makes no sense as it is not the christian view, but I suppose there may have been someone wh tried to tie the two together at some part considering Christianities origin in Judaism.
Now that's where it becomes dangerous. As Imperial Arts said early who has benefited better than the spirits. Sometimes a spirit will pretend to be under your control so that you spread the method and it can fuck with peoples lives who evoke it without proper protection. The person who puts out the method may have continued success without any knowledge he is being used to draw in victims.
The Traditional Grimoires have a certain amount of credit to them as many people including myself have practiced them to success as they were originally.
I think that things can be altered once you start talking to the spirits that you have traditionally summoned, but Poke's form I am not one for.

The Names written on the belt, are they not the same as those written on the circle? Obviously many of these things pre date Agrippa, he didnt come up with them off the top of his head, but their are errors in his spelling and such that are repeated in the Ars Goetia, and even later in the GD. Peterson had discussed this at a book signing a couple years back.
As far as Christian Kabbalah or Cabalah goes, just internet search it, it exists.
I agree, and appearantly so does Lietch, that once you have some experience with the grimoires you can begin to personalize them.

#57 AEternitas

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:37 AM

Poimandres said:

I believe we are arguing a point that can never be resolved...the exact date of the Lesser Key is nearly impossible to point down, at best we can say 1600 +/- 200 years. It very clearly draws from earlier principles, but it is highly unlikely that this Grimoire as a complete system was developed any earlier. One thing that is certain is that the Lesser Key and the Goetia are by no means "broken" systems that need reworking to function - which is Poke's pivotal argument.


Oh yes, that is a good point, Runyons stance was that the Ars Goetia was incomplete and inoperable, which has never been the case. No grimoire has ever been as accessible.

#58 TOLKA

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:42 AM

AEternitas said:

The Names written on the belt, are they not the same as those written on the circle?

They do indeed. I have clearly gotten that from a later version. Apologees.

AEternitas said:

Obviously many of these things pre date Agrippa, he didnt come up with them off the top of his head, but their are errors in his spelling and such that are repeated in the Ars Goetia, and even later in the GD. Peterson had discussed this at a book signing a couple years back.
As far as Christian Kabbalah or Cabalah goes, just internet search it, it exists.
I agree, and appearantly so does Lietch, that once you have some experience with the grimoires you can begin to personalize them.

Well the Goetia itself predates Agrippa. Though not the version which we are common with, but an older version which gives the spirits as Jinn. I believe its 11-13th century. The version which is considered the 'original' is much later indeed made up of grimoires much earlier than itself which I don't believe feature in the original at all.
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#59 TOLKA

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 01:56 AM

http://www.ishtarpub...lectors_edition

Of course I have doubts that this book is real. Personally it raises to many questions as far as I am concerned, but nonetheless...
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#60 AEternitas

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 02:06 AM

Ive seen that book, its a modern creation.





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