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What can I use as substitutes for an athame?


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#1 GreenLight

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:27 AM

Well, I live with my parents and they recently busted me for smoking. So they do random checks at my room and I KNOW they are not even remotely supportive of me practicing magick. Much less me having a double edged dagger in my room.

So is there anything I can use as a substitute for an athame? But I also want it to have a personalized magical FEEL to it when I do the rituals.

I was thinking maybe a wooden dagger? Or a plastic one? And what if I use wands? But those are also hard to explain to my parents. But , I'm open for suggestions so please post whatever your idea is :)

#2 Caliban

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:01 AM

A wand is easily substitutable. It is probably a good deal older as a tool of magic in any case.

So, for that matter, are your index and middle finger extended together, with your thumb folded up over your closed ring finger and pinkie.

The gesture is what I was taught by my coven to use when a physical knife was not feasible. One simply imagines that one is holding an athame and proceeds as usual.


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#3 Cavalier

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:06 AM

Your penis.

The athame is representative of the male organ (thus the whole "knife and cup" business). Therefore, the penis can replace the athame.

I know this sounds wise-ass, but I am being entirely non-facetious. Use your dick.

#4 Qaexl

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:45 AM

Caliban said:

The gesture is what I was taught by my coven to use when a physical knife was not feasible. One simply imagines that one is holding an athame and proceeds as usual.

I was taught this gesture as the "secret sword hand". There are a couple ways to imbue it. It also seems more effective (at least, for what I do with it) if you can perceive the bone (structure) and not just the hand.

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#5 Bara Mortath

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:50 AM

Any other blade would make a reasonable substitute, pocket knife, butter knife, letter opener, straight razor (one of my favorates). Really though you don't strictly need any tools to practice, though they are handy foci.
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#6 Caliban

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:18 AM

Qaexl said:

I was taught this gesture as the "secret sword hand". There are a couple ways to imbue it. It also seems more effective (at least, for what I do with it) if you can perceive the bone (structure) and not just the hand.

-Qaexl
That's very interesting, that the same gesture should be read as "invisible blade" in two very different modes of practice. I stand doubly by my recommendation. :)


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#7 GreenLight

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:52 AM

Caliban said:

A wand is easily substitutable. It is probably a good deal older as a tool of magic in any case.

So, for that matter, are your index and middle finger extended together, with your thumb folded up over your closed ring finger and pinkie.

The gesture is what I was taught by my coven to use when a physical knife was not feasible. One simply imagines that one is holding an athame and proceeds as usual.

Sounds feasible.:idea: I can visualize a shiny cool athame and go about the rituals. Thanks :)

Cavalier said:

Your penis.

The athame is representative of the male organ (thus the whole "knife and cup" business). Therefore, the penis can replace the athame.

I know this sounds wise-ass, but I am being entirely non-facetious. Use your dick.

Interesting...But I don't HAVE a penis :D Can I use somebody else's though? :)

#8 MagiAwen

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 01:30 PM

GreenLight said:



Interesting...But I don't HAVE a penis :D Can I use somebody else's though? :)

:orly:

LMAO ah...hahahah

I would recommend the same as Qaexl and Caliban. Physical tools generally are there just to train yourself anyway, they actually aren't necessary except for personal preference. It is much easier, however, to use a tool than to imagine using a tool. Same goes for any other tool, using this way I mean.
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#9 Cavalier

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 03:00 PM

GreenLight said:

Interesting...But I don't HAVE a penis :D Can I use somebody else's though? :D

Yes. Preferrably, you'd want that embalmed.

Oh, you mean a live one? Yes, I suppose you -could- do that. Just um, don't play too hard. Things could get messy.

As for the other people: I highly disagree that the "tools don't matter". The tools add an entire level of sympathy. This is precisely why they are used. Well-crafted occult tools are of vital importance to high magical ceremony.

Sympathy is cumulative. The more sympathy, the more power. The most powerful spell you could cast would involve every level of sympathy you could manage. Wearing magical rings, amulets, wielding proper tools, invoking and evoking proper energies and spirits, while breathing in the right fumes, reciting or listening to the right sounds, and doing the spell at the right time.

Also, what religion is your family? Hindu? Moslem? There are plenty of religious reasons to have weapons on your person.

#10 Caliban

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:03 PM

And a gesture, employed with understanding and intention, is every bit as good a method as having a particular tool. And far less unwieldy than tracing the invoking pentagram of Earth with one's penis.

You may note that the first option I listed was a tool - the oldest tool - a wand. Moreover one with the same masculine symbolism that you refered to after. Then, I told what I was taught by the people who first required me to have an athame, which was the question asked.

Tools help a lot. But if you can't do what you need to do with what you have or can improvise, you are to all intents and purposes crippled.


"There is a crack, a crack through everything. That is how the light gets in." -- Leonard Cohen


#11 TOLKA

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:14 PM

You can use any blade, but if you want it to work well it should still be marked with the correct symbols. I have actually used scissors to good effect this way, but the most commonly used it your hands clasped together with fingers pointed like they are a blade. The athame is supposed to be an extension of you so you also work well, but take in mind that it will not work as well as an actual double edged blade.

And yes scissors are double edged in a way :D Oh and if you just wanted a normal double edged knife but are worried about leaving symbols you mark the scissors with wax, it doesn't have to be visible. and wax can peel of metal very easy.
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#12 Zafasai

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:55 PM

In my school we clasp the thumb between the first and second finger - this respresents (and kinda looks a bit like) the Phallus.

In Magick the Wand and the Sword are the masculine weapons - they are thus phallic - because the phallus is the active force.

The cup and the Earth are feminine for the are the passive receptive elements.

Anything that represents the Phallus will do :D

PS - It is possible (and desirable) to successfully perform ritual in your head. In fact one purpose of practising ritual physically is to enable you to perform it astrally with more ease.

If you find you are unable to perform ritual physically at any point - you need simply to close your eyes, visualise yourself in an imaginary temple and practise it there. In your astral temple you can have the sickest f-off athame you can imagine!

PPS - this is not as easy as it sounds.....! But it is definitely worth the work

#13 AliceWonderland

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:10 PM

GreenLight said:

But I don't HAVE a penis :D
You know, when I read the recommendation of using one's penis, I did wonder if you were endowed with one.

GreenLight said:

Can I use somebody else's though? :D
I think your parents would definitely wonder what was going on in your room! :D
"Alice had got so much into the way of expecting nothing but out-of-the-way things to happen, that it seemed quite dull and stupid for life to go on in the common way." (Lewis Carroll)

#14 Winnipeg1919

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:38 PM

Cavalier said:

Your penis.

The athame is representative of the male organ (thus the whole "knife and cup" business). Therefore, the penis can replace the athame.

I know this sounds wise-ass, but I am being entirely non-facetious. Use your dick.

Given that it is necessary to move the athame around quite a bit in some rituals, this is probably one of the least useful ideas that I have ever heard.

The most common substitute for an athame is your projective or dominant hand. In fact your projective hand can substitute for all masculine tools, and your receptive hand can stand in for all feminine tools. There is no need to complicate it further.

It also saves your from trying to get your dick to trace a pentagram. A difficult prospect unless you have taken some dance lessons.
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#15 MagiAwen

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:53 PM

Winnipeg1919 said:

The most common substitute for an athame is your projective or dominant hand. In fact your projective hand can substitute for all masculine tools, and your receptive hand can stand in for all feminine tools. There is no need to complicate it further.

Nicely put

Winnipeg1919 said:

It also saves your from trying to get your dick to trace a pentagram. A difficult prospect unless you have taken some dance lessons.

again...hahahaha! Nicely put. ROFL.. why can I picture someone doing that? I wonder how many people will read this who won't admit they have done that...lol
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#16 PeregrineTritonis

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:45 PM

Magical equipment is only useful insofar as it helps focus the mind; the most useful tool I've used is a magical journal, or Book of Shadows. Keeping track of the spells you cast should, in the long term, aid your spiritual growth far more than any shiny bejewelled Glow-O-Dagger™. Therefore, what you substitute for the Wiccan black-handled dagger depends upon your intended use. If you practice "kitchen witchcraft," I humbly suggest using an ordinary steak knife or bread knife. Keep it clean, and hide it in plain sight. On the other hand, if you're more inclined towards traditional witchcraft, or ceremonial magic and Hermetic occult science, you can't go wrong with a wooden wand. Birch trees are associated with the Goddess in northern European countries; hazel is traditionally linked with witchcraft and magic by the wise-folk of Britain.

I hope this helps.

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#17 Mugami

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:56 PM

I use an odachi, katana, or scythe, but none of those would help you. I would suggest perhaps a railroad spike. They might think it's a little weird but they'll never associate it with magic. Plus rail road spikes are highly magnetic and are excellent for energy work.

Oh, also. India has a history with using walking sticks for thrashing snakes, right? So a walking stick wouldn't seem too abnormal. It would also work as a substitute.

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#18 Allicloud

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 10:56 AM

These are all good ideas. But basically, you just need something long and thin and hand-held. So yes, an athame would be ideal, but a wand is much easier and less conspicuous. Just take a dowell and adorn it with stuff that you think makes it look magickal. Say, an enochian call written round it, a lump of quartz on the tip, ribbons or strips of paper coming out the top. Good example is the kind of wand used in shinto rituals. It is literally a length of wood with paper strips folded and stuck to the top. It's easy to hide, and it create a satisfying rustle every time it moves.

But if you absolutely have to have an athame, buy a bunch of other weapons, like a spear, a wooden (or real, depending on the legality of it in your area) katana, some shuriken, nunchuks, whatever, and just say it's part of a collection. That's what I do, and I've had 2 athames for months.

#19 Qaexl

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 02:20 AM

Mugami said:

I use an odachi, katana, or scythe, but none of those would help you. I would suggest perhaps a railroad spike. They might think it's a little weird but they'll never associate it with magic. Plus rail road spikes are highly magnetic and are excellent for energy work.

Huh, I've always wanted to get a railroad spike. That's an awesome idea. Are those usually steel or iron?

-Qaexl

#20 TOLKA

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 06:41 AM

Qaexl said:

Huh, I've always wanted to get a railroad spike. That's an awesome idea. Are those usually steel or iron?

-Qaexl

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