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Ancient Shamanism


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#1 teopiltzin

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 07:32 AM

I was wondering if anyone had any information on the history or tradition of cave man shamanism. It is the earliest religion and is one which conventional shamans try to imitate, or at least should. Primitive cultures seem to be closer to it than those in the West, but I wanted ask: What were the techniques, beliefs, and cosmology of the Cro-Magnon or Neanderthal shamans. These first shamans had a deeper connection to nature or to the plant and animal world than any of us could have dreamed of. They had direct contact with the cosmos and the Creator. Any information on this would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Yours,
-Teo

#2 Issit

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 09:46 AM

I dont think there are any ways you would find out by ordinary means.
All that scientists are doing is guessing- when it comes to stuff like that,
and that is naturally not a very exact way how to find informations.

I bet the only way to find out is to go there and ask them personally.

Either via Lucid Dreaming
or
by Astral Travel.

(or becoming all space and time and KNOW:) )

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#3 teopiltzin

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 05:40 PM

I've tried to travel to Adam and Eve, who were australopithicus. But we had a hard time communicating. They couldn't speak. Didn't have a highly developed larynx. Anyway, I found a site that approximates what i was looking for.

http://factoidz.com/...agnon-religion/

#4 Jehu A.:U.:

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 06:09 PM

teopiltzin said:

I've tried to travel to Adam and Eve, who were australopithicus. But we had a hard time communicating. They couldn't speak. Didn't have a highly developed larynx. Anyway, I found a site that approximates what i was looking for.

http://factoidz.com/...agnon-religion/

Seems like sigilization to me.
Comrade Humar, the Party Clown in Technicolor Uncarnate

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Every Golden Apple Is The Beloved Home Of A Golden Worm.

#5 Gandridur

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 06:34 PM

Scientists call all the old pre-religions schamanism. But it is questionable and an ongoing debate. No one know what they believed and what kind of rituals they practiced. And to know one has to know everything in their world to make sense since there where no difference between the mundane and the spirit world(s). Its like all those so called pagans that claim that they have revived the Norse religion. Its not possible since there were no such thing as the Norse religion. There were at least a couple of religions. The assgods were the kings, jarls, chiefs and warriors religion. With some exceptions of course. A few kings had Frey as their god. But the Norse religion varied where you lived too. And in Egypt there were no such thing as one religion. Those gods we know in the west were the ruling classes religion and gods. The others in Egypt had other religions and gods. And there obviously no such thing as a one religon either among the primitive man. So all those who try to revive fail. Of course it would had been very interesting to know but we will never know. And rely on astral wont help either. Even if we would meet a primitive man we would never understand enough to know.
My magic memory stretches back eons. My everyday memory no longer than the nose.

#6 TheSeeker

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 01:06 AM

teopiltzin said:

I was wondering if anyone had any information on the history or tradition of cave man shamanism. It is the earliest religion and is one which conventional shamans try to imitate, or at least should. Primitive cultures seem to be closer to it than those in the West, but I wanted ask: What were the techniques, beliefs, and cosmology of the Cro-Magnon or Neanderthal shamans. These first shamans had a deeper connection to nature or to the plant and animal world than any of us could have dreamed of. They had direct contact with the cosmos and the Creator...

Okay, so if you don't know anything about it, how can you make broad sweeping statements like those above?

1]. "Primitive cultures seem to be closer to it than those in the West...";
What about Shaman who live and practice in the Americas?

2]. "These first shamans had a deeper connection to nature or to the plant and animal world than any of us could have dreamed of..."
What about extant shaman who currently live and practice in less technologically developed cultures?

3]. "They had direct contact with the cosmos and the Creator..."
They did? How do you know?

Issit said:

I dont think there are any ways you would find out by ordinary means.
All that scientists are doing is guessing- when it comes to stuff like that,
and that is naturally not a very exact way how to find informations.
It's actually called Cognitive-Behavioural Archaeology, and there's a little more to it than guessing. ;)

teopiltzin said:

...Anyway, I found a site that approximates what i was looking for.
http://factoidz.com/...agnon-religion/
My advice would be to check your sources, Dude.
The gal that wrote that page is an M.A. in Medieval Archaeology, not exactly a related field.
I actually have a book in my To Read pile that I haven't gotten around to yet. However, I did run across a reference to it the other day in Eliade's seminal work on Shamanism. The book in question is by Johannes Maringer, and is entitled The Gods of Prehistoric Man,. The edition I have is from Phoenix Press 2002.

Gandridur said:

The assgods were the kings, jarls, chiefs and warriors religion...
I thought The Assgods was another name for Turbonegro... ;)

#7 teopiltzin

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 01:21 AM

I know what I know because is shapeshifted into a cave man and tried to understand his world. I've shamanic journeyed to prehistoric time and interacted with these hunter gatherer societies. I've read Eliade's book and love it btw. But why so hostile? Take a chill pill.

#8 vulnera

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 01:53 AM

the only real "work" that even touches this subject remotely is the ROCK ART the shaman in question left behind.

take a long hike to a remote site, see what the record tells YOU

:light:

#9 voidgazing

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 01:55 AM

I've got to come down on the side of "there is no knowing through ordinary means." This was an oral tradition in a society made of people who thought absolutely nothing like the way we do (if research into the medieval and bronze age minds is any guide, and I think it is).

That said, Teopiltzin, let me lay this on your brain meat.

It absolutely does not matter what those guys thought or did or how they did it.

Break your goal down here: You are looking for the uber-shamanism, a closer connection to the creator/nature/whatever. You see knowing what the 'cave men' knew as a route to that. But you can't know what they knew.

So find it. Make it. Spirit journey and Seek. Become the uber shaman of the aeon and teach others. Whatever powers they were hip to, you get hip to. Their time is over- your time, our time- that is what to concern yourself with. Ask yourself- are the great spirits concerned with sabretoothed tigers and carribou hunts anymore? Or are they concerned with oil spills and housecats?

Fred Flintstone is dead, and you can't read his diary because it was written in cave man and cave men didn't know how to read, but whatever he didn't write wouldn't make any damn sense anymore anyway ;)

#10 vulnera

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 02:04 AM

voidgazing said:

Fred Flintstone is dead, and you can't read his diary because it was written in cave man and cave men didn't know how to read, but whatever he didn't write wouldn't make any damn sense anymore anyway ;)

disagreed. completely.

they left ample record, we just generally dont think we can "read" caveman.

the ideograms are there, nonverbal communication is there. just takes magic and ritual to re-earn the skill to learn their "story without words"


:cool:

#11 Brennan

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 06:11 AM

I would suggest going to some of the locations where it is presumed that certain rituals took place -- some of these caves, for instance, -- and merge with them.

Why not, you know, communicate with the things that are still there from those times?

Access that layer of energetic resonance and dive on in, or you know, visit these spirit worlds and planes and ask the spirits there. I sincerely doubt they've gone away...

...just find something/someone who might possibly remember & ask.

#12 Jeremiah Fuglseth

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:49 PM

I have quite a bit of observational experience( and a smidgen of practical learning :( ), in the Shamanic Tradition of the Native Americans of the MidWest. Shamanism to me seems the Illumination of One Source. Emenationism, I guess, if people want to get all verbose. Maybe read some old native stories and prophecies if you want to get closer. They are wonderfully simple. I do want to ask; what makes you say they had a much deeper connection than we will ever know?

#13 Jeremiah Fuglseth

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 05:54 PM

Also, go find a Native Elder. They might talk to you about it, if you are cool. I don't see why not. You know, people living on Native Reservations don't eat European meat. I don't think...

#14 Jones

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 01:35 PM

Like everyone has said you cant know what ancient shamans were thinking or how they acctualy practiced magic (or if they even did) and I agree. What I think you should do is just try to forget what you have learned and just do magic the way you feel is right. That truely will be the closest thing to anchient shamanism. In my opinion the first magic was fire. People seem to think of it as mundane but stop and think for a second. what is more magical? so when I want the clouds to open and let the sun shine through I put a pinch of tobaco or sage down and light it up. It still often suprizes me how well it works. I've been practicing the arcane for a few years now and only recently have I started to study what others have to say. I've read a ton of books in the last few months and so far its all just been interesting theory with no practacle use. once the winter is over and I get out of this house back into the magic filled world I proly wont remember a thing I read. I will continue to discover by doing and being and I think that is what being a shaman is suposed to be.

#15 Qaexl

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:27 AM

Check out Graham Hancock's Supernatural some time.

-Qaexl

#16 Atridr

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:15 AM

Not exactly ancient shamanism, but if you're interested in historically accurate description of shamanism, you should check out Anna-Leena Siikala's "The Rite Technique of Siberian Shaman". It's most comprehensive scientific study of the techniques and beliefs of siberian, mongolian and chinese shamans I have read.

#17 persona

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 05:44 PM

I would recommend that you do a little research into Wicca. Gerald Gardener created the religion after he did research into some of the earliest know religious beliefs and found that totems and effegies of a fertility goddess were used all over the world by some of the oldest civilizations we know about. From this and other research, he created Wicca to be a shamanic (kind of) religion that emphasized communing with nature and worship of the fertility goddess and the hunting god, both of which represent some of the earliest areas of concern for humanity. Its also worth noting that Gardener was just some dude who lived in the 1960's and that not all of the practices in Wicca will match up with what you're looking for, but I think that if you follow Gardener's research you might at least find some interesting concepts.

#18 wren

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 01:56 AM

You want cave man juju? Meditate in a cave. Sitting with yourself in complete darkness does interesting things to a person's mind.

#19 Taren Etcher

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:22 AM

Sure gardner lived four years of the 60's. Wicca inst remotely close to what the op is looking for in my opinion
Qoud fuit est sicut qoud erit, et qoud erit est sicut qoud fuit, ad perpetranda miracula aeternitatis

#20 persona

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:35 PM

Its true that Wicca isn't what the op is looking for at all. But I believe Wicca came into being because Gardner was asking a similar question to the one Op is asking. He was looking for what religions were like back in the days when there were only hunters and gatherers and so I think that, if the op follows some of his research and looks into what the foundation of wicca was before the dogma was added in, he might at least find some interesting information.





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