7 replies to this topic

[Variance]

Hey guys.

I've heard people say that LD and AP are pretty much the same thing. I've heard people talk about dreaming and say it's a nightly astral projection type thing.

I've heard other people say that LD is in the subconscious, and doesn't really have much to do with AP.

Donald Tyson (author of Soul Flight) says they are pretty much the same thing, so he refers to them with one title : Soul Flight.

Also, you know how you can affect things in the physical world through the astral?
So fulfilling realities, doing the impossible in dreams... How does that tie back with my last sentence above?


So which of all of the things I have said are right? Which are wrong? Correctness in this part isn't dependent on what I personally think is (my paradigm), right? Because if that's the case, then I'm even more confused.


Basically I just need things to be cleared up because all these thoughts are confusing me, and confusion leads to fear. Obviously I don't want that if I want to keep APing.



Thanks.

[Issit]

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So which of all of the things I have said are right? Which are wrong? Correctness in this part isn't dependent on what I personally think is (my paradigm), right?

No, not on what you think.

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I've heard people say that LD and AP are pretty much the same thing. I've heard people talk about dreaming and say it's a nightly astral projection type thing.

I've heard other people say that LD is in the subconscious, and doesn't really have much to do with AP.

It can be both, there are different types of LD.

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Also, you know how you can affect things in the physical world through the astral?
So fulfilling realities, doing the impossible in dreams... How does that tie back with my last sentence above?

Well, depends what you want to do in astral, some affecting is easy, some not so easy.

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Basically I just need things to be cleared up because all these thoughts are confusing me, and confusion leads to fear.

Hugs.

Dont worry, just dont befriend scouts too much:p:rolleyes:

Just kidding..not really actually:p
But dont worry about them, they are hard to find anyways:)

[MagiAwen]

Variance said:

Hey guys.

I've heard people say that LD and AP are pretty much the same thing. I've heard people talk about dreaming and say it's a nightly astral projection type thing.

I've heard other people say that LD is in the subconscious, and doesn't really have much to do with AP.

Donald Tyson (author of Soul Flight) says they are pretty much the same thing, so he refers to them with one title : Soul Flight.

I am answering this from a Hermetic point of view which can be found in Franz Bardon's work.

LD and AP are the same as far as both being involved with the astral body. However in LD you can only explore your inner psyche. With AP, again involving the astral body you can also explore the greater expanses of the astral plane.

Variance said:

Also, you know how you can affect things in the physical world through the astral?
So fulfilling realities, doing the impossible in dreams... How does that tie back with my last sentence above?

Think of it this way....regular dreaming is you exploring your subconscious hopefully to cause change within your waking self or your consciousness.

Lucid dreaming is your astral body exploring your subconscious hopefully to cause change within your waking self or your consciousness. Lucid dreaming can lead to astral journey.

Astral projection is your astral body exploring the astral realm hopefully to cause even more change within your waking self and your subconscious. Because you are in a place where the subtle bodies are, change is different there and affects the physical world differently as well.

Variance said:

Correctness in this part isn't dependent on what I personally think is (my paradigm), right? Because if that's the case, then I'm even more confused.

No one can really answer this. Because no one can prove to others what is true in these matters. And really...when you get around to looking more of this stuff up...who knows if any of us really come up with some sort of solid truth...because we use words to express things that are beyond words. As they say one man's devil is another man's angel. In the same vein...one person's entity is another person's inner self.

[Xion]

Variance said:

Hey guys.

I've heard people say that LD and AP are pretty much the same thing. I've heard people talk about dreaming and say it's a nightly astral projection type thing.

I've heard other people say that LD is in the subconscious, and doesn't really have much to do with AP.

Donald Tyson (author of Soul Flight) says they are pretty much the same thing, so he refers to them with one title : Soul Flight.

Also, you know how you can affect things in the physical world through the astral?
So fulfilling realities, doing the impossible in dreams... How does that tie back with my last sentence above?


So which of all of the things I have said are right? Which are wrong? Correctness in this part isn't dependent on what I personally think is (my paradigm), right? Because if that's the case, then I'm even more confused.


Basically I just need things to be cleared up because all these thoughts are confusing me, and confusion leads to fear. Obviously I don't want that if I want to keep APing.



Thanks.

All right, not to get too heavy-handed or technical here, but the responses you get will vary with the paradigm applied.

I sought answers regarding LD/AP, the differentiation (if any), the techniques, etc. and the best I could say to you right now is find out for yourself.

My thoughts were pretty much that LD is a subset of AP with AP being more based in an astral "reality" (and I use that term very loosely), but since embracing more of a chaote's perspective, they might be the same exact thing with the only difference being semantics.

I would never get discouraged though, LD/AP is probably one of the most easily verifiable (as in possible, not as in objective other dimension) phenomenon to experience and is also one of the most rewarding. I have wound up in such situations mainly by accident (overtiredness and/or fluke), but when I was most active in the occult is when I found them occurring the most. The exit sensations alone make it worth it for me. I love the full-body vibrations, spatial displacement, and viewing a room through closed eyelids. Not to mention the sexual aspects of extreme lucidity and control probably blow most "real life" stuff out of the water. That alone is a reason to work towards that goal.

Would recommend the more technical, less New Age-y, Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen LaBerge. Robert Bruce's Astral Dynamics is good too. You can even ignore his energy paradigm if it's a little too "out there" for you and focus on the techniques.

[GreenLight]

LD: You become aware your dreaming and you learn to control it, hence you can do what you want in your dream world(Flying, Telekinesis, Sexing Megan Fox)

AP: Your soul leaves the body, but is attached to it with an umbilical chord. Here, you are OUT of your body. So it doesn't really happen in your mind unlike an LD.

While LDing you break your Mom's favorite vase, its gonna still be there when you wake up. When you AP and break the vase(Given that you have enough practice with it) the vase is really broken and your gonna have to deal with an upset Mom the next day(Just pray she isn't menopausal )

[PyrKorwin]

You can use LD to archieve AP, but they're not exactly the same. You can even visit the astral while sleeping without knowing it. I see our subconscious as highly connected to the astral, but I don't think they're the same. One does have a LOT of influence onto the other, though. :orly:

About the paradigms, yes they change the way you see the astral plane. I know a magist that sees the astral as a lot of planes under the allmighty and allseeing God's powerful leadership, and sees the gods of other religions mostly as angels and such. Then you find other people (as me) who sees the astral as something like the "The Sandman" (yes, the Neil Gaiman's novel) universe.
But if you want me to be sincere, I don't think neither is the "correct" option. The astral is a lot of strange energy that can be more dense or more fluid. They have their their own rules and dimmensions that we can't really understand since we're bound to this reality with only three dimmensions.

What I'm trying to say is that anyone who tries to "explain" the astral will find a huge problem. Let's think a little. :confused: We have three dimmensions, they have more. If there are beings made of only two dimmensions, how would they explain their point of view if they had seen us? They wouldn't be able to explain one of the dimmensions and would be fatally bound to their own point of view. :light:

[ChaosTech]

Dreaming comes from the psyche (soul). When you dream, you turn your senses inward and experience your own world within. Lucid dreaming is when you take conscious control over your dreams. You can use God like powers to shape and control your dream how you wish.

Astral Projection is to project your consciousness through the various metaphysical (many physical) realms, with a body made out of the vibrations of that realm. We all have many bodies, emotional, physical, mental, and vital or pranic body. There is also the spiritual body. Astral projection is just learning how to willingly and consciously use these bodies to act as a vehicle for our spirit to explore, learn, experience, grow, etc.

The difference between proper LD and AP lies in the understanding of the Macrocosm and the Microcosm. When Lucid dreaming we explore the microcosm, when astral projecting we explore the macrocosm.

[Fadelis]

Maybe this is just me or the way I started into this. I read a Hermetic book that discussed "inner spaces" and how to augment your imagination through, practice, practice, practice and more practice until your image is so complete that it becomes a "real" place in your mind where "you" are actually fully engaged with the environment and can "pop in" anytime awake or asleep. This was the simplest but most powerful thing I have ever done. After I had built this "place" a number of things happened all at once. First, lucid dreaming just became the norm. My mind just created new "places" on the fly and I could recognize them as such. Also, the people in the places became "real people". I had conversations with co-workers with details I could validate later. A few times THEY even seemed to recall certain points discussed as well (of course they always look confused when this happens) So I haven't been in places, but I do believe I have projected into other people's spaces and met them within my own.