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Why do you summon/invoke Goetia/spirits/angels/demons


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#61 01010

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 03:54 PM

Corvus said:

Does this mean your answer is 'illusion'?

Neither and both, I would say. ;)

#62 Corvus

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 04:52 PM

I suppose this particular subject would have to go under a different thread discussion. I'm having difficulty understanding some things in this thread but do not know the proper way to phrase or explain my questions.
I'll try it this way: If our own existence is only a subject of perception or illusion, would it be fair to say those of this belief could therefore not logically believe in the external existence of invoked/evoked beings?

#63 01010

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 05:03 PM

I guess it all depends on the system (and thus perspective) through which the symbols are explained.

If self is all, for example, there can be no external... (etc.)

#64 RifRaf

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 06:44 PM

Corvus said:

I'll try it this way: If our own existence is only a subject of perception or illusion, would it be fair to say those of this belief could therefore not logically believe in the external existence of invoked/evoked beings?

No. I believe, practice and have had success in both practices, and I do not believe in objective entities. Actually, the more work I did with Evocation and "Astral" work, the more open I became to the idea of a "universal consciousness" and the idea that there is no hierarchy of Angels, God's or Demons floating around in the some astral field.

But yes, it depends on the systems one is working, what stage one is at and a handful of other factors.

We dance around in a circle and suppose, but Baphomet sits in the center and knows.



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#65 Corvus

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 06:56 PM

RifRaf said:

No. I believe, practice and have had success in both practices, and I do not believe in objective entities. Actually, the more work I did with Evocation and "Astral" work, the more open I became to the idea of a "universal consciousness" and the idea that there is no hierarchy of Angels, God's or Demons floating around in the some astral field.

But yes, it depends on the systems one is working, what stage one is at and a handful of other factors.

Thank you for that answer. So in astral work, I have read here that some who travel on the astral plane meet other spirits and also other astral travellers, and interract with them. What is your opinion of that? I mean what have you found in the astral plane in your experience?

#66 noxlux

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 07:17 PM

An alternative view is that there is something out there. Not necessarily angels or demons as we imagine them, but forces that we can interact with AND by personalising them we can achieve other things than by not personalising them.

#67 0 and 2

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 02:47 PM

noxlux said:

An alternative view is that there is something out there. Not necessarily angels or demons as we imagine them, but forces that we can interact with AND by personalising them we can achieve other things than by not personalising them.

is that alternative or a restatement of about what Rifraf said just above?
"Know that to be indestructible which pervades all this; the destruction of that inexhaustible principle none can bring about. These bodies appertaining to the embodied self which is eternal, indestructible, and indefinable, are said to be perishable; therefore do engage in battle..."

"The Soul, being a brilliant Fire, by the power of the Father remaineth immortal, and is Mistress of Life, and filleth up the many recesses of the bosom of the World."

#68 Isaac

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 04:35 PM

Granted your views may differ from what your arguing (or maybe you have no views at all on this argument) but if you do have a personal view (that you haven't yet shared) would you care to answear your own questions IAO131?
The Spirit of Air shall receive a soul, and the dream shall be a thought. We shall be swept away no more before the tempest, but shall bridle the winged steeds of the morning and guide the course of the evening winds that may flee into Thy presence.

#69 Kuroyagi

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 10:32 PM

^ Yes, I agree, that would be interesting to read; yet, unfortunately that entitiy seems to have been temporarily banished again...

Actually if we got a bit philosophical about this, one could ask: what's the use of anything, anyway? What's the use of all the strive and of life itself, if it always ends with death anyway? What's the use, even, to create any so-called long-lasting things like works of art, writings or even whole empires with their seemingly long-lasting structures? After only a couple of thousands of years they'll be gone anyway!

What indeed! We should ask ourselves those questions; I already have some (unsatisfying) answers for me right now...but I think it good to ask them anyway. Yet, the forum should also be here for projection, for active sharing and not only for disecting others' creations, as necessary and interesting a task it may be; yet, on the long run, if its only that, if its only the sword and nothing else, then there can never be even the chance even the possibility of anyhting cause then everything will be atomized and dead from birth. Yes, tis true: one ought to be an idealist to be a "something", to be existant (summoned) at all.

#70 01010

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 10:56 AM

hm... yes... let the game go on :P

#71 noxlux

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 08:01 PM

0 and 2 said:

is that alternative or a restatement of about what Rifraf said just above?

It was a wingclipped post due to haste, howeverI think that I am pretty much in agreement with Rifraf on that particular point.

We are good at personifying "things".

#72 Hypocriteuniversal

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 11:04 PM

Corvus said:

Thank you for that answer. So in astral work, I have read here that some who travel on the astral plane meet other spirits and also other astral travellers, and interract with them. What is your opinion of that? I mean what have you found in the astral plane in your experience?

Though last time suggesting reading didn't appear to help... I'll try again. Because I'm stupid, insane, and dogmatic.

Ever read Dr.Strange? He's a "Marvel Masterpiece", as Marvel puts it. Astral projection is JUST LIKE that.

And yes, Baron Mordo is there too. And sometimes you have to put up yer dukes to save a Hindu spirit or two.

#73 atziluth

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 03:24 PM

You make a good point, however i think of it in the light of Jungiun archtypical figures, that is as a tool and symbol for the subconcious to release power, why use a pentagram why use a candle why practice ritual magick at all? It is simply a vehicle/tool and a good one, even as a group mind projection telepathically these figures have i guess built up energy over time, also the subconcious responds better to a symbollic figure or symbol than (in my opinion) a mantra for example. 2 cents.





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