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Why do you summon/invoke Goetia/spirits/angels/demons


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#1 IAO131

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 03:31 PM

93,

There are many people out there that do invocations & evocations to get 'results' which are often visions (and voices).

Yet what is the point of any of this?

1) To summon an angel or a demon or any entity outside of oneself to accomplish something (e.g. attack a person you don't like, obtain a job, obtain a woman) is an implicit acceptance that you yourself are unable to get what you want by your own powers. That is, summoning an angel to help oneself implicitly means that you are too weak, too powerless, too lazy, and/or too helpless to actually do this task oneself. This means, then, it can only come out of a sense of deficiency or weakness.

2) A vision of a bodhisattva does not make oneself a bodhisattva; A vision of God does not make one God. Even the most fantastical vision does not necessarily alter one's perceptions in life or create a revaluation of anything. Plotinus, St John of the Cross, and many eastern mystics have repeatedly said that visions are exactly what gets in the way between oneself and Godhead... and is the goal not Godhead?

So... why do you invoke and/or evoke?

Is not an evocation of an entity an implicit acknowledgement of one's own impotence?

Is not the desire for visions somewhat... pointless?

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#2 ramus

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 03:38 PM

My goal is to be able to talk with the entities and learn of things I would not be able to learn with conventional studies.

R
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#3 IAO131

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 03:45 PM

ramus said:

My goal is to be able to talk with the entities and learn of things I would not be able to learn with conventional studies.

R

Name one thing you've learned from entities that you have not from 'conventional studies.'

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#4 ramus

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 03:48 PM

I have yet to actually practice summoning/evoking/invoking. I do not feel I am ready for that yet. It is my goal, nothing more at this point. I have yet to dedicate myself to my goal, which is rather disappointing and soon I will. I just have to take that next step.
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#5 Isaac

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 04:48 PM

Well there are two reasons that may seem to have a point (from your view that is).

1. Summoning incarnations of your inner "demons" (whatever they may be) and dealing with them in such a manner like that. I believe thats what a part of the Abramelin operation is all about.

2. A way to use your energies "objectively". It might help some people to be throwing commands at an "entity" rather then into the air. (even if the results do end up being the exact same.)

Point 2 really is all just about preferred Style.

Disclaimer: I don't have any actual experince of this except for a (seemingly) failed evocation of mephistal.
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#6 Transcix

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 05:01 PM

IAO131 said:

Name one thing you've learned from entities that you have not from 'conventional studies.'IAO131
I guess that Ramus's main goal is not enlightenment, or godhead as you put it, but occult knowledge/power. Either that, or he's saying that spirituality alone cannot lead to enlightenment, or perhaps that he wishes to pursue a path of enlightenment off the beaten track that necessarily involves secret occult knowledge/power.

Generally, truth be told it is my personal opinion that most occultists' motivations for realizing visions and astral communication are not very noble, not very substantial. First of all it should be said that it is a perfectly worthy goal to seek vision if you are a beginner in these things and want evidence that "supernatural" or "spiritual" things are actually real. Beyond this, I find trickery is often involved, on the part of the astral party or parties, that something is said to encourage further communication on a regular basis. Usually a lie about certain universal principles, and/or a promise of power is involved; the astral parties are made out to hold more value for the human individual than they actually hold. Now often, depending on the depth and specific nature of the human person's intentions and paradigm going into the whole experience, sometimes this relationship turns out to be, as it was in my case, a trial by fire, where if you fail then you do not find your way out of the deception of the astral entities (hence you fail, no magickal constraints are used against you, at least in essence, rather it's just your own ignorance), or you succeed, you realize your way out of the deception and learn a valuable lesson about the astral and reality in general (and yourself) in the process. Malevolent astral entities (and I should say the majority of them are malevolent) do not wish to give you the opportunity to pass the test, it is not a game for them like that, but rather they must adhere to certain protocol. I would not say that this protocol is some "divine law", although I could not rule that out, it's far more likely to be a mutual agreement between various influential parties. It is a test like this because in the process of universal procession things are set up in such a way that wisdom is not wasted and things are not in vain, so evil is not wasted either. They are in fact the physical component of your ego - in terms of your state of awareness, affecting how subtle/alert/light or dense/confused/thick you feel (I am not sure what terminology to use to qualify these things) - and are often intimately related to the process of enlightenment the more one's path to enlightenment is left-leaning in nature. Right-leaning paths often never gain knowledge of how embedded evil substance is in the human condition, of how this substance comprises a neutral sort of "matter" that comprises one's inner experience of one's body and affects one's capacity for thought and emotion, that it is by virtue of this that humans learn in graduated process, under enforced ignorance, with the capacity to exercise choice each step of the way (freedom of will), as opposed to knowing everything all at once (humans are innately enlightened in an impersonal, "unapplied" sense). I do not mean to paint a happy or sad picture here, just to express my perspective of things.

#7 ramus

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 05:29 PM

Transcix said:

I guess that Ramus's main goal is not enlightenment, or godhead as you put it, but occult knowledge/power. Either that, or he's saying that spirituality alone cannot lead to enlightenment, or perhaps that he wishes to pursue a path of enlightenment off the beaten track that necessarily involves secret occult knowledge/power.

Good assessment. Actually, I am not completely wanting to do it for occult knowledge/power. Perhaps more so for history, science, and other topics not pertaining to the occult. I am interested in learning anything and everything really.
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#8 RifRaf

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 05:39 PM

The first time I did Evocation I was just trying to find out for myself if this "thing", this process which all of these Adepts claimed to have practiced was real, or if this entire branch of thought, and this entire industry which has its own little spot in the large bookstores, was a big lie in which everyone who claimed these things could write a book and cash in on the ignorance of the mentally defective. I was hoping for the latter (bling bling), but instead something did happen. This is a retarded reason to do Evocation, but the Order I was in at the time (an off-shoot of the Golden Dawn) encouraged this type of attitude so I thought it was perfectly acceptable and reasonable. I carried on like this for a good 3 years.

I now do Evocations, almost always within the context of the Enochian system, to amplify energy, "astral awareness", whatever you wish to call it, for upcoming work. To start an ebb and flow of energy. I found that this process works good when one is trying to "enter" something, especially an Aethyr or most recently one of the "Houses" from Liber 231. Why the hell would I want to enter into either of these? In hopes that something will click, speak to me on a high level, to find out why the hell I am here, to give purpose to my life or to try and find out what the purpose of my life is. All of the above? “To obtain a scientific knowledge of the nature and powers of my own being.”

Lately I have been in limbo, though. I came into this with the idea that, if initiation and spiritual attainment is real then it would be the only thing in life worth working at. Now I've seen things, soaked in a lot of material, spent a lot of time with it, but where the hell am I? I don't know. I read lies and exaggerations on forums, I sift through inventions people create to make themselves feel better or "look cool", trying to find something that may have some truth behind it, and then comment upon it all.

So...I don't know why, when it comes down to it.

We dance around in a circle and suppose, but Baphomet sits in the center and knows.



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#9 Angelologist

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 06:38 PM

IAO131 said:

93,

So... why do you invoke and/or evoke?

IAO131

To better myself, reach enlightenment, gain knowledge of the universe, experiment with reality and attain spiritual wholeness. . .

IAO131 said:

93,
Is not an evocation of an entity an implicit acknowledgement of one's own impotence?

IAO131

I guess, if one also considers a person needing a teacher to learn or a counselor for guidance acknowledging impotence.

IAO131 said:

93,

Is not the desire for visions somewhat... pointless?

IAO131

To me yeah, but to someone else I guess its fulfilling, who am I to say? A relative of mine finds my desire to travel and explore different cultures via saving funds rigorously for this goal utterly pointless. People have weird hobbies, interest, addictions, and issues that seem trivial to some but important to others.

*Just found this thread interesting, I'm not trying to start something. . .

#10 Jastiv

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:02 PM

I guess I do not see what is wrong with summoning a force outside yourself if you are unable to do something yourself. It is just like asking for help from someone on the mundane.

As far as wanting visions goes, that could be said about any desires, but then again not having desires is way worse than having them. Do you know what that is like?

#11 Raokin

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:12 PM

Transcix said:

First of all it should be said that it is a perfectly worthy goal to seek vision if you are a beginner in these things and want evidence that "supernatural" or "spiritual" things are actually real.

I'm not sure that it is. I must admit that this was a big factor in my initial decision to start studying the occult. I had to figure out for myself if any of this was real. Above all, I wanted to meet a "spiritual being". I never received any evidence, though. Perhaps I wasn't dedicated or disciplined enough or perhaps there is no evidence that I can obtain which constitutes satisfactory proof for me. I tend to lean towards the latter. Seeking visions is merely the lust for results. I don't think it's the best way to start out on your path.

I no longer practice evocation or invocation. I always have and still do find meditation useful, however. The power of magick is, for me, in the mind.

#12 Ark

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 07:33 PM

The reason I evoke and/or meditate on demons is not because I am impotent. As it was previously stated, are you impotent for having a teacher or counselor? Demons are beings that you can learn something from, regardless of whether you see them as wise creatures, extensions of your own conscience, or beings of nature with no personality at all.

#13 SilentJoy

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 08:22 PM

I don't have enough experience to form an opinion on this matter, but I thought "invoke, invoke, invoke" was the general "rule" to (one method of) attainment of K&C?
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#14 RifRaf

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 08:52 PM

Yes, "Invoke Often" is one of the many ways to achieve the K&C, or as it is called at the earlier stages "The Vision of Adonai".

We dance around in a circle and suppose, but Baphomet sits in the center and knows.



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#15 IAO131

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 05:49 AM

[quote name='ramus']I have yet to actually practice summoning/evoking/invoking. I do not feel I am ready for that yet. It is my goal, nothing more at this point. I have yet to dedicate myself to my goal, which is rather disappointing and soon I will. I just have to take that next step.[/QUOTE]

Ah, I did not pick up on that - I appreciate your honesty! That is certainly a worthwhile goal, but I have yet to see a demon, for example, tell me which stock to invest in...

[quote name='Isaacrpgr2000']Well there are two reasons that may seem to have a point (from your view that is).

1. Summoning incarnations of your inner "demons" (whatever they may be) and dealing with them in such a manner like that. I believe thats what a part of the Abramelin operation is all about.[/quote]

This is essentially admitting that demons are really metaphors & symbols for inner problems and nothing more.

[quote]2. A way to use your energies "objectively". It might help some people to be throwing commands at an "entity" rather then into the air. (even if the results do end up being the exact same.)[/quote]

It certainly does feel better to command my imaginary horse-friend than no one at all...

[quote name='Transcix']I guess that Ramus's main goal is not enlightenment, or godhead as you put it, but occult knowledge/power. Either that, or he's saying that spirituality alone cannot lead to enlightenment, or perhaps that he wishes to pursue a path of enlightenment off the beaten track that necessarily involves secret occult knowledge/power.[/quote]

No he was saying something much more mundane and down-to-earth which was that obtaining knowledge was his goal but that he had not tried evoking...

[quote]Generally, truth be told it is my personal opinion that most occultists' motivations for realizing visions and astral communication are not very noble, not very substantial. First of all it should be said that it is a perfectly worthy goal to seek vision if you are a beginner in these things and want evidence that "supernatural" or "spiritual" things are actually real.[/quote]

A vision of something is not proof of anything beyond one's ability to have visions which is, in modern science, very well-established as a natural part of the brain (there is, for example, a studied condition where a person perceives cartoon characters in a blind spot of their eye...)

[quote name='RifRaf']The first time I did Evocation I was just trying to find out for myself if this "thing", this process which all of these Adepts claimed to have practiced was real, or if this entire branch of thought, and this entire industry which has its own little spot in the large bookstores, was a big lie in which everyone who claimed these things could write a book and cash in on the ignorance of the mentally defective.[/quote]

Definitely valid and I enjoy the skeptical outlook...

[quote]I was hoping for the latter (bling bling), but instead something did happen. This is a retarded reason to do Evocation, but the Order I was in at the time (an off-shoot of the Golden Dawn) encouraged this type of attitude so I thought it was perfectly acceptable and reasonable. I carried on like this for a good 3 years.[/quote]

If you believe it will happen is a common idea among both occultists and other religions...

[quote]I now do Evocations, almost always within the context of the Enochian system, to amplify energy, "astral awareness", whatever you wish to call it, for upcoming work. To start an ebb and flow of energy. I found that this process works good when one is trying to "enter" something, especially an Aethyr or most recently one of the "Houses" from Liber 231. Why the hell would I want to enter into either of these? In hopes that something will click, speak to me on a high level, to find out why the hell I am here, to give purpose to my life or to try and find out what the purpose of my life is. All of the above? “To obtain a scientific knowledge of the nature and powers of my own being.”[/quote]

And we rely on this Enochian and other entities to give us 'scientific knowledge' of not their but our own being? Whoever assumed they had something or anything useful to say? Why not talk to strangers on the road...?

[quote]Lately I have been in limbo, though. I came into this with the idea that, if initiation and spiritual attainment is real then it would be the only thing in life worth working at. Now I've seen things, soaked in a lot of material, spent a lot of time with it, but where the hell am I? I don't know. I read lies and exaggerations on forums, I sift through inventions people create to make themselves feel better or "look cool", trying to find something that may have some truth behind it, and then comment upon it all.

So...I don't know why, when it comes down to it.[/QUOTE]

Indeed... if its not to the end of Attainment, it makes little sense really...

[quote name='Angelologist']To better myself, reach enlightenment, gain knowledge of the universe, experiment with reality and attain spiritual wholeness. . . [/quote]

You better yourself by evoking demons adn spirits? You reach enlightenment by evoking demons and angels? YOu gain knowledge through this? You attain spiritual wholeness? Those are all very nice phrases but I honestly and sincerely doubt it, my friend.


[quote]
I guess, if one also considers a person needing a teacher to learn or a counselor for guidance acknowledging impotence. [/quote]

What do demons and angels and spirits have to teach? I have yet to see something valuable taught by a spirit that was not also taught by a human. Also, yes, to go for a counselor or someone for guidance implies you lack the power and ability to guide yourself.

[quote]
To me yeah, but to someone else I guess its fulfilling, who am I to say? A relative of mine finds my desire to travel and explore different cultures via saving funds rigorously for this goal utterly pointless. People have weird hobbies, interest, addictions, and issues that seem trivial to some but important to others. [/quote]

Yet most people dont justify their hobbies as leading them to 'enlightenment' and 'spiritual wholeness', y know...?

[quote name='Jastiv']I guess I do not see what is wrong with summoning a force outside yourself if you are unable to do something yourself. It is just like asking for help from someone on the mundane. [/quote]

Certainly, but most people do not realize this fact that asking any external entity for help implies you are unable to achieve that end on your own. For example, someone gets mad at person X and curses them with a Goetic demon becuase they have no means to exact revenge the way they want...

[quote]As far as wanting visions goes, that could be said about any desires, but then again not having desires is way worse than having them. Do you know what that is like?[/QUOTE]

Ive experienced a state I would term 'desire-less' but I agree with you... Id much rather experience the satisfaction of satisfying hunger with food than lamenting over the innate suffering in the process of eating.

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#16 MagiAwen

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 09:20 AM

IAO131 said:


There are many people out there that do invocations & evocations to get 'results' which are often visions (and voices).

Yet what is the point of any of this?

1) To summon an angel or a demon or any entity outside of oneself to accomplish something (e.g. attack a person you don't like, obtain a job, obtain a woman) is an implicit acceptance that you yourself are unable to get what you want by your own powers. That is, summoning an angel to help oneself implicitly means that you are too weak, too powerless, too lazy, and/or too helpless to actually do this task oneself. This means, then, it can only come out of a sense of deficiency or weakness.

You make sure to state "outside of oneself". Does that mean you personally find usefulness in invocation? Seems to me evocation can be as useful as invocation, it is just the manner (with what attitude) and reasons one evokes. I don't think absolutely everyone fits into the mold you created here. But surely the majority do.

IAO131 said:

2) A vision of a bodhisattva does not make oneself a bodhisattva; A vision of God does not make one God. Even the most fantastical vision does not necessarily alter one's perceptions in life or create a revaluation of anything. Plotinus, St John of the Cross, and many eastern mystics have repeatedly said that visions are exactly what gets in the way between oneself and Godhead... and is the goal not Godhead?

Yeah but...we have people all over saying, "think it and you will be it" "fake it till you make it" "you gotta live like your rich to be rich" :D

I mean who in their "right" mind would ever listen to sages and mages of the past when we have completely and totally successful and competent and probably even "enlightened" new age self help spiritual gurus to listen to every morning at 2 am on the longest commercials in the world channel?

:rolleyes:

IAO131 said:

So... why do you invoke and/or evoke?

In short, it's relaxing and fun.

IAO131 said:

Is not an evocation of an entity an implicit acknowledgement of one's own impotence?

I don't think so, not necessarily anyway. I first started evocations just to see what would happen. Although, I didn't have the internet or Crowley or all these numerous people with all their opinions to tell me what was right or real. And yes, stuff happened. For years an unbelievable amount of craziness happened. And I enjoyed it. Didn't know what it was about all of the time, didn't know whether I was fooling myself most of the time or what. But I liked it and I learned things along the way. So. Why not?

I have generally used evocation and invocation to the same ends, to get me along my path. Whether I am actually contacting other entities or simply putting myself in a state where I can "spontaneously" recall information is really moot.

There is a theory...ok well I have a theory but I have seen people express at least parts of it in places. To be short, if you think of the universe as a huge internets (grin) and that you can "download" or capture information from the energetic imprint of knowledge all floating around in the universe like it's all fancy.....well...then evocation makes total sense as does invocation.

I'm sure you read my stuff about Goetia and money. That was a huge experiment and at the end of the day...I cannot tell you that such and such a demon "helped" me win those drawings and etc. But I can say that since I did what I did, I became more astute and aware whenever I was around money. I put myself in a position that money was a trigger. So...I noticed more opportunity, more mistakes and more gambling machines lol. It all could have gone very much south if I were a greedy person though. Because I think when you put yourself in a position such as this awareness it's a bit subtle and your little mind can push it and take it in a whole other direction and mess it up by ego or greed or some other what not getting in the way.

IAO131 said:

Is not the desire for visions somewhat... pointless?

I don't know about that either. I guess if you pursue things as an end goal it might be pointless. So far I have simply let whatever happens happens sort of be my guide. I try not to have any expectations when doing something, which can be difficult and I am not completely sure I have ever achieved that. But I think if you want actual progress in any of these personal/spiritual/magical issues, you need to just let it come as it may.

There has always been a lot of religious and magical information out there in the world. Today there is more than ever and some easy access to good and very bad information.

In the end you see what you want to see whether it is there or not. The whole damn thing is an illusion. So everyone just take what they can, do with it what they will and there are never any true/concrete and satisfactory answers for everyone.

Sometimes exploring what must be phenomena seems a dead end. And then sometimes you get a phrase that somehow lights up your world, sparks your understanding and might even gain you some wisdom +3. But. There's no telling where it actually comes from either.
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#17 Transcix

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 04:31 PM

IAO131 said:

A vision of something is not proof of anything beyond one's ability to have visions which is, in modern science, very well-established as a natural part of the brain (there is, for example, a studied condition where a person perceives cartoon characters in a blind spot of their eye...)
I was referring to a bonafide occult experience, of which visions could be a part. I think often things are attributed to the unconscious when it makes no logical sense, because it's not as if the unconscious has a mind of its own. But I suppose that is a whole other thing...

Jastiv said:

As far as wanting visions goes, that could be said about any desires, but then again not having desires is way worse than having them. Do you know what that is like?
I do not understand. I often say that desire is affirmation of a lack in the first place, for example desire to to seek the light affirms that one is not already the light in the first place. I am not saying it is bad to desire, because sometimes lack is real, but I just caution people not to undermine themselves by short-changing themselves and implying more lack than there is. But OK, is it not ultimately better to have everything one needs, rather than to always desire? I do not understand why desire is ultimately better than fulfillment/fullness/etc?

#18 Kuroyagi

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 09:22 PM

If its ok I'd like to let speak some entity I summoned some months ago, (to get some other perspective on this, from the "other side" so to speak).

#19 RifRaf

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 11:51 PM

Kuroyagi said:

If its ok I'd like to let speak some entity I summoned some months ago, (to get some other perspective on this, from the "other side" so to speak).

Are you trying to say that you are going to ask some "entity" its point of view on this and post what it said?

We dance around in a circle and suppose, but Baphomet sits in the center and knows.



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#20 Kuroyagi

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 11:58 PM

I will ask an entitiy of its reasons to have appeared here. (on this forum)





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