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Conspiracy-theorists and occultism


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#1 symbolicsorcery

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 08:13 PM

I'm posting this message because of concern over the perception of occult and esoteric philosophy/science in general, and magick in particular.

It seems that a lot of your conspiracy-theory types want to belive that occult only means wanting to harm others, and that a New World Order-type group has been using the occult to institute their power. They believe that if we could stamp out the occult, burn all occult books, and burn all occultists at the stake, then that would circumvent the institution of a New World Order. In short, occultists have been branded as heretics, and it appears there is a new witch-hunt.

In truth, occult science has been sequestered by the New World Order elite. Little do the conspiracy-theorists know that the occult is just like science. It in itself is indifferent, the key is how it is being used. We can use science to build machines of death, or use it to discover medicine, and invent technologies for the spread of information. If it is used to harm others, it is black magic. If it is used to raise the consciousness of yourself and your community, it is white magic.

Unfortunately these individuals feel that magic by any name is akin to black magic as defined above. My own interpretation is that they are not willing to change themselves as a necessary means to eliminate said New World Order. They can acknowledge that magic is being used against them, but are unwilling to accept that the same principles can be used to take their power back. It reminds me of the quote from Vernon Howard: "We can accept God becoming man to save man, but we cannot accept man becoming God to save himself."

So my question to the group is: How can one effectively tell these people the real meaning of the occult? Is it even worth bothering? Perhaps they don't want to do anything about it because they need the New World Order around to have something to blame everything on.

#2 Winnipeg1919

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 09:41 PM

Don't bother.

Those who produce these theories do not care about the truth. Some of the writers conspiracies are so transparently false that it is hard to credit the author's own belief.

The best bad example is probably The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. This contemptible forgery was proven to be produced by the head of the Russian Imperial Secret Police in the 1890's. It was based on a chapter in an anti-Semitic Prussian novel that was written in the 1830's. All of this is well documented, yet the Protocols continue to be cited as fact by Neo-Nazis and conspiracy theories as fact more than a century after their exposure.

In Masonic circles, we continue to have the Morgan scandal thrown at us even though it has shown to be a hoax.

It gets tiresome to be told how Freemasonry is part of the NWO conspiracy because the Shrub is a member of Skull and Bones. When I point out that S&B is not a Masonic body, and that I am a Mason, the believers generally tell me that I must not be a high enough degree to be in on it.

You simply can not convince the believers no matter how much real evidence is on their side.
Winnipeg1919

Facta non verba (Deeds not words) - Regimental Motto, Fort Garry Horse

#3 Indigoblade

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 03:19 AM

It's really not that big of a problem. The number of people who actualy believe that the "NWO/Illuminati/Freemasons/Them" are real are fewer then one might think. Then the number of them that actualy believes magick is real is even less. What I am more worried about is the conservative right wing leaning more towards religious bias. In other words, do nothing. Until the day when whitch hunting beggins to be discussed, do nothing. When and if the burning times ever come back then we will rise and squash any who stand to Gain from the lies they will spread. Imho I think what we really need to do is handle the idiocrasy thats in charge of the governments. Just look what has been done. The true threat lies in the direction of the greedy.
:)

#4 Octarine Prince

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 10:56 AM

But, the real question:

Is Leonardo DiCaprio a Mason?

http://www.whale.to/...o_dicaprio.html

#5 Qryztufre

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 04:12 PM

I STUCK this thread, but it'll likely on be temp. I just thought it was worth keeping at the top for the time being *boggle*

Winnipeg1919 said:

It gets tiresome to be told how Freemasonry is part of the NWO conspiracy because the Shrub is a member of Skull and Bones. When I point out that S&B is not a Masonic body, and that I am a Mason, the believers generally tell me that I must not be a high enough degree to be in on it.

That is because we non-masons are in the know :P

symbolicsorcery said:

So my question to the group is: How can one effectively tell these people the real meaning of the occult? Is it even worth bothering? Perhaps they don't want to do anything about it because they need the New World Order around to have something to blame everything on.
Its sometimes not a matter of HOW but a matter of WHEN, and sometimes WHO. For my mother (who is not a conspiracy buff) I just gave her a copy of Cunningham's The Truth about Witchcraft Today and that seemed to be enough to allow her to accept things by my way of thinking. That book would not have worked with my Grandmother (who again is not a conspiracy buff). Though in most cases, the TRUTH is likely the best course of action...but even then, as Winnipeg1919 said, that does not always work.

#6 energamancer

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 05:59 PM

Hello :--)

Personnally, I don't know if they're witch, masons, or illmunati ... or even reptilian and that does not have any importance, but the one thing I know, there IS people out there with a big EGO and they don't care about my health or well-being, as long as they can do money and have power, doesn't matter for them if I'm harmed you neither.
Peskawakik Kwedemos
The truth about oneself is in the middle of the inner labyrinth

#7 Sandalphon

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 06:35 PM

IMO "NWO/Illuminati/Freemasons/Them" have a important part to play in this existence just as much as Jesus-Adherents and supporters of other fundamentalist religions.

#8 Benpari

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 08:51 PM

People who believe in the NWO have to rationalize it under their current paradigm. The vast majority of the people who believe in the NWO, in my experience are Christians. Therefor they rationalize it as basically the work of Satan. Atheist tend to rationalize it more politically, usually hatred of religious fundamentalists, democrats, republicans, socialists, communists, nazis, totalitarians and all or none of the above.

Anyways, the people who believe in both the occult and the NWO are probably religious fundamentalists and you aren't going to convince them of much of anything.

So I would say don't bother, or if you think they might be open enough for it then try explaining to them that the occult, like you said, is indifferent.

I now see the NWO as not much more than people who have power trying to get more power. I now rationalize the NWO as more of a anarchist.

#9 Qryztufre

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 09:41 PM

Benpari said:

Anyways, the people who believe in both the occult and the NWO are probably religious fundamentalists and you aren't going to convince them of much of anything.

I believe in both, and you would be hard pressed to prove to me that either do not exist... though, I'm far from being a fundi in one way or the other.

And I also believe that Winnipeg1919 is not a high enough degree to know all the secrets. LOL Seriously! Though, erm, I'm not going to play that card because I also believe that I (a non-mason) am also not privy to many of the 33rd degree (33.3/34th! :eek: :rolleyes:) information.

#10 Benpari

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 10:34 PM

I think a lot of us believe in both, but its also safe to say that we are definitely not the majority.

I believe that the Masons, as an institution, are not involved. Because it is a fraternal organization made up of some of the most well connected people in the country, there are definitely members involved. I have heard some pretty interesting things from people claiming to be well connected. I have no way of knowing if any of it is true so I won't bother posting any of it.

I have heard several times that Freemasonry's secrets aren't terribly interesting and if you are interested in secrets you are better off joining something like the OTO. I have no way of knowing though....

#11 Guest_Moonchilde_*

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 12:54 AM

Well, since this is under Conspiracy let me go a bit wild and take this past world politics to the currents behind them.

What about the notion of worldwide black lodge? How many people have taken oaths they do not know the full extent of? What about in your dreams? How many know the full obligations of the currents they serve? How many people read a text and gloss over a few words, agreeing with something they shouldn't? When is a game not a game? Do people believe that these could bind one in ways that would affect their actions unknowingly?

Sure, most people would not even be high enough in it to even know that their actions are being directed. They would go about giving good advice with just a few little tweaks from "higher powers" that turn the path. Small decisions that lead away from illumination leading up to major trust in the wrong primary focus.

Perhaps this is one of the reasons so many tricks are in standard occult works - get close enough to the truth and you have to deal directly with these levels and that may leave you somewhat compromised, and perhaps sometimes a falsity can look like a glittering truth. Since you cannot really know, yourself, making others bake their own bread would seem prudent, so one who is truly seeking is not just pulled in to any deceptions inadvertently woven in your text.

Certainly one can find a multitude of religions whose gods in some aspects are *not* very friendly, that project a grim inhumanity against anything decent. Yet perhaps the road forward sometimes leads backwards.

There are also certainly aspects of every person that seek to dominate control , enslave, degradate. Have there been a set of levels that have been patterned with our energies in this frame? If one has to open ones self in order to reach the divine, what else gets thrown in as a bonus prize on the journey up? How can one be sure that one's basis is not tainted, especially since the subtexts hold the primary reflections?

If there is a certain pattern of opening and closing that is required, wouldn't the black path seek to break in to the stream to obtain more energy, and corrupt more people?

What about partially mixed streams, that have both illumination and gravity wells, what major sighs would one look for to navigate these shoals? Trust yourself, yes, but who else to trust, and when?

It would seem to be a continual game of cat and mouse, if it were true.

Namaste.

#12 Michael Smith

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 02:43 AM

symbolicsorcery said:

It seems that a lot of your conspiracy-theory types want to belive that occult only means wanting to harm others, and that a New World Order-type group has been using the occult to institute their power. They believe that if we could stamp out the occult, burn all occult books, and burn all occultists at the stake, then that would circumvent the institution of a New World Order. In short, occultists have been branded as heretics, and it appears there is a new witch-hunt.

While I do believe this to be the case with some people, I feel they are the minority. More and more people (even Christians) are opening up to "new age" and "global consciousness awakening" concepts. With 2012 just around the corner and all the buzz around it, people are reading, pondering, and hoping for "better times."

Of course there are the doom sayers, and yes, there are camps claiming that "new agers" and occultists are trying to hijack and ruin the world. But I just don't see those types as being the majority any more.

#13 yipe

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 03:04 AM

I've said it before: I WANT a New World Order. This one sucks. Can anyone explain why people are so afraid of a global change? Or global government? I seriously don't get it, please help me out!

#14 Guest_Moonchilde_*

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 12:01 PM

This is because most people really don't understand what the current world order is. Nor do I, really. They do not see the long con that is being perpretrated unless they are quire unlucky (or lucky) or live in the wrong region. Even then they generally only see the immediate results not the scope of the powerful.

It doesn't take a conspiracy, just powerful men acting in their own best interests, unfortunately. For every scrupulous man of power there are probably a bakers dozen who got that way through doing harm to others.

Collusion doesn't have to be large scale, just large enough to cover the sphere of influence that group is interested in. Is this a conspiracy, or just the fact that at this time to acquire power generally means you are a sociopath?

Namaste.

yipe said:

I've said it before: I WANT a New World Order. This one sucks. Can anyone explain why people are so afraid of a global change? Or global government? I seriously don't get it, please help me out!


#15 Yngwaz

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 07:48 AM

It is possible the so-called ‘black lodge’ has provided the necessary friction to polish our Stone. Yet we need consider that conflict presupposes opposition, and duality ‘really’ is an illusion of the Game. All too easily, “They” may become responsible for all the shortcomings of one’s own life - as in progress stifled by the phantom spooks obscuring one’s “real issues”.

Of course, we need allow for the possibility that nazi hell creatures have overrun the Earth and our whole species has gone totally insane. It does seem to appear that way.

(...or perhaps we are merely observing a natural process unfold, like the breaking of a wave).

The truth may be soooooo bizarre that most folks’d just lose their minds if they had even the slightest clue of what were really going on....which may, in fact, be a kind of prerequisite.

If only there were some TooL capable of shifting the paradigm and communicating the inherent harmony of the cosmos to even the simplest of Fools....
Tempore patet occulta veritas...

#16 VirginWitch

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Posted 11 March 2010 - 06:49 AM

yipe said:

I've said it before: I WANT a New World Order. This one sucks.

Well Said.

-Disclaimer before I start in I will warn that views I express herein are a bit controversial and I am openly advocating for rolling up the sleeves and playing hard ball, I speak for myself and no one else-

Ya... This whole issue of these confounded tin foil hatters has really been getting at me lately.
On one hand I'd like to win the lotto and *self-censored* basically I'd like these conspiracy theory websites to "disappear" but that would just play into they're hands, think about, it the tin foil hat press would have a field day with it. -not to mention the odds of wining the lotto, it's more likely that Elvis is alive and Is the King (of the NWO)
Thank You Thank You Very Much.

Now on the other hand a more realistic approach is to expose them for the paranoid, bigoted, gun jumping, illogical, whack jobs they generally are and are even more generally fairly easy to make out to be.

Think about it when you encounter some anti-nwo nut aka conspiracy theorist bka tin foil hatter in public(on the street, at a party, in the hallway in school, at the mall, wherever) raving and soap boxing about the "new world order" and the "Illuminati puppet masters", well engage them in debate, counter they're bs with facts, use humor, ridicule them, push they're buttons, make everyone around see them as paranoid bigoted @$$clowns, unless you are in a crowd of tin foil hatters or fundamentalists or etc the social dynamic is your friend, you can make them look really silly and stupid around the average crowd.

The whole idea is to Destroy They're Credibility.

You Are; the calm & collected, cool level headed person, and or depending on the crowd the unjustly villianized and or victimized, pagan/witch/mason/kabbalist/freethinker/whatever you identify or fancy as

They Are; the mad hatter/paranoid lunatic/untrustworthy/dis-credible/psycho-babbling lunatic/social nuisance/bigot/general whack job

I think you get the idea.
In My Opinion there is no need to play nice, these people are guilty of libel, bigotry, witch hunting, spin doctoring, and so on.
They want a fight I intend to deliver.
They should have known better than to take on magicians.

And Ya when it comes down to it I think it's long past due to time we built some new pyramids, So Here's To The "NWO"
Elvis Has Left The Building

Edited by VirginWitch, 11 March 2010 - 07:56 AM.
typos and self censor


#17 Tie

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 03:09 PM

Not all people that read into alternative views on popular issues are crazy and illogical. In fact, there are many 'conspiracy theorists' that only prescribe to notions they believe have enough evidence to make them plausible. I think it's a bit of a cop-out to belittle all of them like that just because there are some that go a little off the deep end. Not to call anyone out by name but there has been some hateful comments made in this thread and I don't really get why. What's with all the negativity? Most people in our society would think that we are a little off just posting on this forum. Also, I think it's important to note that some of these 'conspiracy theories' from years ago have turned out to be true.

If you look into their information and call BS then tell them. However, I think it would be silly to make assumptions before doing research on your own.

As for the existence of an 'NWO' shadow government, yes I believe this. However, I call it international corporations and those who run them. Through their effective lobbying and campaign contributions they have been able to essentially buy out sections of our government and influence regulation.

#18 Draginvry

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 04:44 PM

yipe said:

I've said it before: I WANT a New World Order. This one sucks.

The world is so screwed up already, I doubt that any new order could make things much better or worse than they already are. The problem is the ignorance and selfishness of humans, not the way that goverments are organized.
"You read books about where I have been." - Mugami

#19 Tie

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:10 AM

Humans are definitely selfish as well as greedy but I wonder if this is the result of growing up in a capitalist society. I feel there is a direct correlation between our upbringing and the way we live our lives. When someone grows up surrounded by racism they will most likely grow up to be racist. If you are brought up surrounded by greed and materialism you are most likely going to grow up thinking these are normal ways of behaving.

I feel that there can be an improvement made if we had a radical change in government shifting away from the current system and to a new one that places the responsibility for the lives of people in their own hands. I'd like to point out that I don't see this realistically happening though because people aren't going to want to lose the power they've accumulated and put it in the hands of the people.

#20 Frater M.P.E

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 03:42 PM

Being a Freemason I have heard we are Devil worshippers , Giant goat sacrificing lizards or rich business men hellbent on ruling the world . You want to see us try and organise our ladies night never mind run the world !

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